L-D, thank you for the head and technique info; funny, I already use the kick-pedal method and I think it's a great technique. Perhaps I have to chalk the small-sound from a small drum results to poor head-choice. If I ever own another 18, I'll try something different. As for discerning the difference between different-sized, studio-miked and recorded drums, I don't posses the expertise - too many variables. Anyway, good info and thanks.

An 18" can be just as loud as a 26", but only in terms of decibels. The overtone spectrum is completely different...a 26" bass drum will have much lower overtones coming through, literally more bass. That's just basic physics regarding sound and the volume of air that moves through and across a cylinder. Kind of like how organ pipes get progressively larger as the pitch drops, or larger timpani for lower notes, etc. A 26" compared to an 18" tuned to the same pitch will sound much bigger...it's moving a lot more air across a larger cylinder. Like a cannon compared to a pistol. Also a 26" can be tuned far lower than an 18", just pitch wise, if you were to compare them with a piano, again like the tunings of graduated timpani. A piccolo can be just as loud as a tuba, but will never be as big sounding or low in pitch.

Thanks,

Bill

In theory yes. In practice, I must disagree with you. Please check out the vids posted in the thread, then tell me that Jack DeJohnette's 18" bass drum does not sound as huge as a 26" bass does. And again....I re-state the Bonham reference: him on an 18 and him on his normal 26"......sounds the same because it sounds like Bonham. And I'm not speaking about volume here....I'm speaking of tone.....tuning and technique is what it is I tell ya.

Ok, I checked out the vids. Not trying to be a contrarian but Jack's bass drum sounds like an 18" to me! Though it's very hard to tell what anything sounds like through recorded media.

I'm mainly going based on experience...I have lots of drums in the house at any given time, and play them a lot. The room I'm sitting in right now has 17 bass drums in it! 8 are 18's, 5 are 20's, 3 are 22's, and 1 is a 26. Sure, I can tune an 18 really low, the lowest pitch that still sounds right, and it will go "BOOM!" It will sound like a Zeppelin recording, one of Bonham's drums. If it's mic'd, it will be monstrous, and could handle any rock gig.

HOWEVER, with this 14x26 tuned low, one solid hit with the pedal and RUN FOR THE HILLS!!! It is more of a force than a sound. Things rattle on the walls. Neighbors outside complain. You can feel it deep down in your chest. Even just moving the drum around creates vibrations that you could almost mistake for a distant thunder storm. It's just a totally different ballpark in person...the 18 is like a toy compared to the 26.

And yes, you can tune an 18" low and mic it to sound huge, but you have to have the right heads, right tuning, right mic, mixer, etc. The bass has to be brought up, the sound guy has to be good. Heck, you could make a 14" drum sound huge with the right setup. But if you were to switch out the bass drum with a 26, it would red line everything, and possibly destroy the electronics! With a 26 the mix levels can come down to normal, and it's easier to get a huge, full sound without everything needing to be exactly right.

Do you think if you were blindfolded, and put Bonham on a Jazzette kit, followed by a 26" kit, that no one could tell the difference in bass drums? Gosh, I think it would be a huge difference, otherwise why would there be more than one size of bass drum?

-Bill

Recorded? No, couldn't tell the difference.....live in a room right in front of it? Probably could tell......the whole air volume moving thing....Walking

And let me confuse matters by adding that there are larger diameter bass drums with very shallow depths and there are small diameter bass drums with deeper depths. So in some instances, the actual volume of air to be moved is the same....and yet the outcome in tone is entirely different. This is because the resonances are different. Think of the human voice. Three singers in the tenor range can all hit the same note, but each of those notes will have individual resonant characteristics which will distinguish each voice.

A small diameter bass drum with a deep depth will move the same amount of air as will a bass drum with a larger diameter and a shallower depth.....BUT, the resonant characteristics will distinguish the smaller diameter drum as being "throatier" and the larger diameter/shallow drum will sound "rounder" and lower.

As far as "projection" of the sound, consider this:

I used to have 2 kitties (RIP) and one day they were sitting across the room -about 20 feet away- in the sunny window while I was playing around with one of those empty blue plastic water cooler bottles...you know the ones...

As I was playing, I noticed the kitties would kind of wince every now and then. Eventually, I put 2 + 2 together and realized that the water bottle drum was shooting little invisible "smoke rings" of air in an obviously-focused way as to cause the kittehs to give me the disapproving look and eventually run for cover as I began to enjoy my new discovery a little too much! heh heh

What was happening was that the volume of air inside that bottle was being generated, at the batter end, from a larger diameter "trigger", if you will, and then squeezed and concentrated into a very focused, projecting kind of "beam" that maintained its shape and energy enough to target the kittehs -kind of like the way different size sprockets on a bicycle work...except entirely different! HA!

But the point is that the shape of the air that comes out of a bass drum can be very focused (by way of the smaller diameter output) or can be very "all-engulfing" (via the larger diameter output) in their respective resonant qualities.

That's interesting O-Lugs, I love personal observations like that.

I have a pair of Infinity speakers, and as well as a regular woofer speaker, there's a passive woofer speaker. It's the same size with a cone but there's no magnet and no power going to it. I thought it was hype at first but when I played bass through it you could see the passive speaker pumping and it put out a lot off bass. The passive speaker has a foam surround that gives it a lot of excursion.

What I've thought about is if there'd be any way to mount one in the front head of a kick drum and if something like that could be made to work. It's also possible you could actually have an amp hooked up to it and it would work something like power brakes on a car.

I'd like to add my thoughts on this - I have a 1995 Sonor Sonic Plus birch kit with a 20 bass, 14 floor, 10 tom. I bought it precisely because I wanted to get into playing jazz - I didn't need to buy these sizes of course, but those sizes don't get in the way of the double bass's frequencies if unmiked and played well.

I love the lightness and the tones of the set, when mixed with two 22 inch 80's era K cymbals. Also, they are perfect for gigs where there isn't much room.

The drums resonate beautifully. I am new to playing 'jazz drums' so I went the whole hog and I have happily had to rediscover how to play. After playing rock and blues all those years, my touch and feel have now changed.

I play along to jazz recordings that don't have a drummer wherever possible. I'm learning a lot about brush technique and it's all good.

I go to a jazz jam where the attitude is not elitist and people want to hear the music swing - I'm happy to help.

Practising at home to get and build your sound is the best way, but I feel having the smaller sizes will help with your 'hearing' the music better, so I would recommend trying some newer bop sized drums unless you can afford the older stuff. Get a good snare first, as you will be using many techniques on it that require articulation, then build the kit around that. I hope I've been helpful.

One thing about drum sizes - it's about fashion. Of course you want smaller drums for easier transportation, but what is considered "standard" and what is considered "small" is just a matter of artificially produced fashion so that people don't stick with one set. Nowdays, kick drums are getting deeper and deeper and toms shallower and shallower. It's mainly a marketing thing. I personally prefer 12"13"16", because I started with them and they are more comfortable to hit for me - on the other hand I could easily go with 20" kick instead of my 22".

Now, about jazz. What would you guys think about this?

http://bandzone.cz/poeticfilharmony

If this is jazz, then jazz sure as hell isn't stagnating!