"equally good" is a value judgment, not capable of confirmation. They may all sound "good," but not the same, even if subtly so, and therein lies the heart of a gear-head.

The many opinions posted here offer several points of view on the question I posed. I really appreciate sharing ideas and opinions with other drum nuts. One comment really resonated with me. A fellow drummer called the vintage hardware--specifically the rail consolette--crap. This "crap" piece of hardware revolutionized the concept of a drum set. It was in steady use by most drum makers from the late 1940's through the early 1970's. I have rail consolettes on several of my vintage drum sets. I have never felt limited in ways to position the mounted tom. Learn the device, and adjust to it as you adjust it to you. Newer versions of the rail are currently en vogue. Calling it crap is tantamount to calling the 1954 Corvette or a 1920's Harley motorcycle crap. These items were state of the art devices when they came out. Rogers Swivomatic hardware (in my opinion) is still the best drum hardware to ever hit the market. It is still being copied by several manufacturers. I appreciate the newer hardware, but I play old drums that don't need the original type hardware replaced with hardware that is 40, 50, or 60 years newer than the drums because the original hardware still does the job very well.

Telling me that drum construction doesn't matter when it comes to the sound that drums produce won't work. Sure, when you're talking about the general public's opinion of the live sound between one band and another band, that's one thing, but to a drummer who is neck-deep in the beauty and mystique of what makes the different great drum sets sound so different, it's like telling a gear-passionate guitar player that an amp is an amp is an amp...

But, yes, when you're playing music and actually producing sounds on the instrument, it is the job of the player and their touch to draw out of the instrument the textures that they want.

leedybdp, you sure sound like someone who is trying to get an argument started. That was what you put in your original post where you claimed matter of factly that everything is overthought and I agreed with you. If you want to play old hardware, be my guest. There are probably a few like yourself who disagree with me saying that the old rail consolette is "crap" but I wager there are far more who agree. It was great in 1950 because it was all we had. It is making a comeback because people like the look of the old kits and hardware. I am sorry but I would rather adjust my kit to me and how I sit properly than sit at a weird angle to play. I have sat around and adjusted and readjusted these consolette mounts and I have also done the same with my Yamaha ball and socket design. It is MY opinion that the ball and socket is by far more adjustable and does not make me sit funny or have to play traditional grip in order to play my tom comfortably. But hey, I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. I've played the best vintage as well as modern drums and I own some as well. My original post reply here was to say that there is no right and wrong. Everyone turns this into a black and white thing. Don't take this so seriously. We are supposed to be having fun and sharing information. It seems like you say you are not out to start anargument but the first post who didn't parallel what you said you act so offended like this is gospel.

Calling anything "crap" on a drum forum is kind of crass. But I've come to the point with reading discussion forums that people over-embellish what they really would say more politely in real life. So, part of what I do when I see over-stated comments is to "adjust" the volume on them, myself. I assume that when someone says that a vintage rail consolette is "crap" that what they are really saying is that there were some problems with them. It's not a big deal. But people just feel more outspoken in this format than they do in real life. Most of the time, it's good advice to BE the one who treats others the way you want to be treated, FIRST. When you see "crap" then flush it! LoLoLoLo

I once heard a guy play a Samsonite suitcase with brushes. It sounded like Heaven. I've heard bad drummers playing on wonderful handmade kits, who couldn't get a good sound to save their life. But the best is when a good drummer and a good set of drums meet!

Another thing to consider about over-thinking drum design is that the designers have to have some fun, too! There have been some truly oddball designs out there over the years and not all of them had to do with the sound they made. Some drums' strongest points were that they looked cooler than anybody else's drums! -Trixon, anyone?!

And, lastly, drum designs are almost always a slave to the design of the modern drumhead. No matter what you'd design, in order to be practical as a musical instrument, it would have to accommodate a modern drumhead. That means it has to be round. That means it has to have a bearing edge...etc. there's only so much a commercial drum designer can do around that limitation.

You guys are funny with your politically correct nonsense. Look, I am sorry if I offended everyone. I tend to not really consider others when I state an opinion because it is my opinion. It doesn't make it wrong or crass or whatever. It's not something I wouldn't say if we were talking face to face. Let's see. A knurled leg with a spade or l-rod with limited positionability or a polyglass ball that spins 200 plus degrees where you go up and down or side to side? Hmmm. Gee Wally. Yes it has its origiins from Rogers Swivo which was remarkable when it came out. In experimenting in the past I found that a tom mounted on a rail consolette sounded better when mounted on a suspension mount but hey, I guess I am just a drum guy, not a "vintage" drum guy. I am sorry I called the old rail consolette crap. It is perfectly functional and so are Zoomatic and Microsensitive strainers. a Trick strainer is not a step up from those well thought out pieces of yesteryear. Those flat based cymbal stands are awesome too. I am going to swap out my chains for leather straps as soon as I get home. Sorry. I am having fun now. The bottom line is I get a good sound out of any drum I play no matter what kind of antiquated or overdesigned hardware it may have, same as you. Minutiae indeed.

Howie, I agree with you 99%. The other 1% is that, due to the level of minutia, we now have instruments with better consistency and overall build quality. However, as much as I LIKE that aspect, drums and other instruments in general seem to have lost some mojo in the refinement process. Perfection and musicality do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

As far as choosing the right drums for the application, I'm not buying it. I'm 51, and as I was growing up, you chose Ludwig, Slingerland, Gretsch or Rogers, four decidely different flavors of drums (yet ALL are drums) and you just PLAYED 'em! Rock, Jazz, Big Band, Bop..... they ALL worked for ALL styles, because WE made 'em work. It's not the instrument, it's the player.

Younger, inexperienced (and older more gullable) players are led to believe that "if you use X-Y-Z, you will play/sound/look/feel so much better". It's the way the industry sells new instruments to dealers at NAMM every year.

The funny thing is that people want choices, and yet all want the same thing it seems. Why do you think so many drum, guitar and amp companies are scrambling to issue as much nostalgically-oriented gear as they possibly can?

If manufacturers had halted production at Ludwig, Slingerland, Gretsch, Rogers, Zildjian, Paiste, Remo, Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Guild, Marshall and Ampeg, Hammond, Moog and ARP, we would still have great music being made. Perhaps even better than it is now.

Newer, more high-tech is not necessarily BETTER, nor is it an accurate indication of progress. The proliferation of minutia and choices just confuses more players than anything else. I mean really, just HOW many versions of a Fender Strat do we REALLY need?

First off, GREAT thread!

3 things from lil ol me:

1) Although I started out playing drums first (6 years old - 10 years old when I got my first set), and I identify myself with drumming first, I am also a late-blooming guitarist. In my quest for good guitar tone over the years, I will say that early-on, playing on a lower quality guitar made me really appreciate playing on a great quality guitar once I was able to afford one. I feel that the great quality guitar made me a better player, not only because it was easier to play, but because with the great quality guitar in my hands, it inspired me to reach levels that I never thought I could reach, and still does. The same applies to drums. I wholeheartedly agree about the limitations of the older/vintage drum hardware. I play a new set now (I know it's sacrilege to say that on this site), specifically because I am a player and feel that the modern hardware helps me to be a better drummer. I am also a gear head and die hard vintage-everything junkie, so it's only a matter of time before I score my old Ludwig set again LOL, BUT it will be the new set that I will play out. In my "salad days", countless sticks were broken trying to get a big sound out of a 12/14/20 jazz kit and and a 12" pair of Zildjian hi-hats, but that was all that I had and could afford at the time. As far as hi-hats go, I now play 16" Quickbeats and barely have to hit them. At my age, that is a very good thing!;)

2) Anyone remember North drums? The first time that I saw/heard these live I thought they were the bomb! Yet I didn't take into account the sound engineer who mic'd them up and adjusted the sound. I know absolutely nothing about North drums other than they looked cool. The drummer was with the band Heart and was fabulous, but the engineer had something that everyone contributing to this thread has included but hasn't mentioned right out: EARS. Which leads me to...

3) The other night a friend of mine turned me on to a new (to me) band. The album is fantastic and the engineering and production are stellar. During one passage, the drummer segued into a groove where I could really hear the snare, and I instantly knew what kind of a snare drum made this wonderful ringing sound. I ran into my music room and tapped on my old trusty Ludwig Acrolite. Yep, that was it. Tuned and mic'd to perfection. Good ears require training, and going with what Jonni was talking about, a trained ear can tell the difference (to a point) between certain specifics of drums (shells, plys, heads, etc.)

Anyway, if you read this far, thanks for reading. Lastly, my hat is off to everyone who contributes to this site. Whether you be a newbe, seasoned pro player, collector, or all the above, the VDF is a source of knowledge for me that I could not find otherwise. THANK YOU!! Bowing

Drummingbulldog:

You make some very valid points with which I have no beefs or arguments. If my preferences of cars were similar to my preferences of drums, I would probably have a few of Detroit's finest cars from the 1950's and 1960's in the garage and on the driveway. I would celebrate the "inconveniences" of the outdated features of these cars, and be able to do some work on them. I would, no doubt, have a vintage vehicle for my daily driver. As it is, I am mechanically inept so that only basic repairs and rehabs to old drums suit my talent level.

I thought that I made it very clear in my original post and subsequent posts that I appreciate more modern drums and drum go-withs. However, I find that certain brands of drums from back when I was much younger still hold the most appeal for me including the original hardware of their time frame. If I come across as argumentative, I apologize for posting anything that anyone might interpret as anything but my opinions. I also like asparagus, but do not like tomatoes.

LOL! Well you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all the people all of the time, Beav! ;)