If you would like to see how the site will work, I have made a few pages visible for you to peruse; the introduction page, the SupraPhonic page and a couple of dummy pages. Rather than post a general user name and password, Please email me [email]George@notsomoderndrummer.com[/email] and I will email you a user name and password within 24 hours; for your use only; Don't give it to anyone else and don't click on the edit icon ( the little pencil). You must give me your real name which, by the way, is going to be a vetting rule for the Blue Book website. To comment or moderate users will have to use their real names. Keep in mind that work has just begun, you are only seeing a few rough draft sections and there is a lot of tweaking and formatting and altering to do. This is all being done in Joomla content management software. I will probably make it public and open for business as soon as the Ludwig brand is finished.

George, I sincerely wish you luck in your endevour.

But I think an attempt to establish prices is unworkable. The market varies from week to week (up or down), the price that a kit goes for is based on emotion as much as anything else, condition is a huge wildcard etc.

There are price guides for Rolex watches and used cars, among others. Those are successful because they are based on an enormous number of transactions that actually took place and there is established system for rating condition. Because of the high number of professionals in those various marketplaces, the ratings represent the consensus of 1000's of professionals and the prices also are tested in the marketplace every day.

The market for vintage drums is thin by comparison and each transaction represents a unique situation. Every seller has a personal opinion about value, and so does each buyer. Also, because of the lack of inventory in the market, it is difficult to compare any 2 kits since it's difficult to find to kits that are the same model and are configured identically. Not only that, but color is a huge factor in the value.

In my opinion, what would be of most use is a rating system. It could be based on the opinions of various professionals and also the more established collectors.

There could be a scale of 1-5 stars in a variety of categories: scarcity, historical significance, original build quality, desirability to collectors and perhaps an indication of the most wanted colors.

These things all impact value and are relative constants, while the amount someone is actually willing to pay for something is so dynamic as to be impossible to pin down. And to establish a dollar value that is only updated yearly is of little to no use in the real world.

A comprehensive source of information on what is actually out there would be very useful, and a way of showing levels of popularity and desirability would be helpful to a lot of people.

Hope this helps...

Had I known yours was the 2nd coming, or Return Of The King, I wouldn't have been suspect about the whole thing to begin with. When rogersling & any of the other 1000+ posters chime in that's stamp of approval enough for me. I'm converted - c

Great idea, George.

I'm glad you picked up this project.

Like anything else, one can take the information and apply it to their own situation or not as they choose.

Lookin' forward to it !!

Big Dan, respectfully, you missed something here. I don't think you read everything I wrote all the way through because you are bringing up points I've already answered. No one is establishing or determining or setting prices; we are reporting prices, reporting concensuses and reporting opinions of the experts, and comments of the buyers and spectators in the market place. There is an average price stated for different levels of condition. One can't do more than that. That happens in this forum; Someone asks "What's this worth?", and you get ten opinions and comparable sales, some high some low, and the buyer leaves with something between a ballpark and a refined value. In answer to your other points: yes, yes, yes, duh, I know that, of course, yes and yes. There is a rating system based on condition, history and options. We are not reporting yearly, but daily on the website. The print book is yearly and that's all some people want. It will be only 5% of what the website does at best. It is not a comprehensive guide, there are many of those out there, like John Aldridge's book. it is a complete 100% reporting snapshot of every drum model ever produced, with extra info about desirable models, at least that is the goal. . And I'm not being snarky here. email me and I'll send you a user name and password so you can look at the rough draft of the Blue Book SupraPhonic description and pricing. i think this is what you are talking about as far as an information source and levels of popularity and desirability.

I ran a drum shop for twenty five years, have been a collector for 40 years and I publish the only magazine about vintage drums, and I'm a confident pompous ass to boot. I don't know everything there is to know about vintage drums but I know the people that do: some of them write for the magazine. I have set the high price for a few drums in a few sales and in a few purchases. I've set MANY MANY low prices for purchases. :-) I have more experience than most, and people contact me all the time to ask what their vintage drums are worth so it's not like the demand isn't there and I haven't thought this through. I've been working on the concept for four years. Of course you can't determine what someone is willing to pay for something. At least not until after they've paid for it. Irrelevant statement. i hope you get involved with this in a positive way.

Don't you know who I think I am?!!!!! :-)

Chris, if I were a smart man and wanted to make a lot of money, i would make it in some other business and then open a vintage drum shop to throw it into, like Steve Maxwell. :-) As it is now, I'm just a working drummer (POCO) who bought old drums because of the way they sound and got hooked. My magazine has a reputation, not me. I just try to live up to the benchmark that John Aldridge set. The only thing that makes me qualified to do this is that I like playing the Don Quixote role and I can write and I'm enthusiastic. I know a lot of these guys here and they put up with me even though I say some dumb and blunt **** sometimes. Fortunately, being an obscure drummer means I don't have to be politically correct and can speak my mind and be obnoxious! WooHoo!. The main reason I pursue these kinds of projects is because I like the personalities and the character of the people involved in vintage drums.

I like the idea of posting "realized" prices so to speak. Kind of like the THMQ index.:D. But too have one man's transactions or a set of mens transactions ( such as eBay or other places drums are sold) to be the barometer in which to decide or influence a price is not a good idea, based on outside forces that may influence that unique purchase or sell.

Keep on Pl

I agree. Ebay as the overall barometer is not a good idea because it is only one of the markets and the high end sales are not accurate, BUT it is the most accurate report of what the market is doing in the low end; for poor and fair condition instruments. The lowest prices paid for for vintage drums tend to be on Ebay, in my experience. I don't think anyone will argue with that. If you want to sell something quick or dump it, put it on Ebay at the right price and someone will buy it, no matter what it is. I don't think it is representative at all of the high end. I had a very desirable holy grail drum in like new condition and asked what I knew to be a realistic price. I did this twice over a period of a year and a half. The drum was worth $2000 and a knowledgable collector bought it for that at the Chicago Drum Show after we both had numerous known collectors weigh in on the value, but I was never offered more than $1750 on Ebay. Most of the collectors and dealers who deal in rare and high end drums don't go to Ebay to sell because the fees are too high and the buyers there are looking for a deal ( and I AM one of those buyers looking for a deal!). They go to the drum shows, to specific collectors, and to no fee internet sales sites (Ahem, like at notsomoderndrummer.com free classifieds)

I guess we see it different. I see it has just as a love of drums. You see it partly has a business. Most people here or DFO, I would imagine, are not the ones looking for the high end drums for the most part. They are looking for those "deals" just like you.

Hi George. I will preface my comments with the fact that I am a beginner who has 2 1/2 kits out in the garage and can barely play them. I inherited a kit and started to get into them some. This has never and never will be about money with me. With that, I only see your price guide/blue book as a huge step towards the commercialization of vintage drums, and to me, that isn't anything positive. Just like baseball cards, beanie babies, coins, postage stamps, name your collectible; when those things become commercialized, the true passion of owning and doing whatever you can do with them is lost to the score keepers and those who only are concerned with the value of their collections, and how to make a profit off of others who are only into them for the hobby of it. That blue-book seems to me to only be another tool at those profiteers disposal.

Good luck with your endeavors, however, as you appear to be a real go-getter, and those type people should be rewarded in life!!

Toodles

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