Supro,

I own a 1939 Ludwig & Ludwig 6.5 X14 NOB "Standard" model. It is pure loud, articulate and responsive. Built to drive and cut through the big bands at the time. The drummers of '39 were expected to drive the band and the big brass shelled snare led the way.

The Ludwig 6.5 Black Beautys are available now with reissued B&O badges for just over $500 on Ebay from several different sellers. You can get one engraved by John Aldridge for about $1500!

You're right there is no aluminum Black Beauty. Its personal preference but even the beloved BB has a hard time matching the awesome sound of a Supra or Acrolite....

There is much romance and mystique, not to mention the original story as related by Rob Cook in the Ludwig book regarding the Black Beauty and how it got its name in the swing era. I think what people are attached to (besides the gorgeous engraving) is the romance and mystique of the older BB. The sound is the same, if not better in the newer models (with triple flanged hoops) because its the same drawn brass shell as used in the past but the improved hoops open up the sound of the brass really nicely!

Simple answer: YES, which alloy? Who knows, as there are a couple of thousand different formulas in the copper alloy family with over 300 hundred "brass" and over 300 "bronze" alloy formulas. Trying to figure the alloy composition out for a line of snares with as long as a production run as the BB has had is virtually impossible! With economics as a main driving factor you can sure bet that there is a fair amount of variety in Ludwig "brass." I have two modern BB's and they are from different alloy formulas.

The method of construction is what really differentiates the early and modern BB's. The early ones were of two piece soldered construction (#1 = top shell, #2 = bottom shell, #4 bead - point where the shells overlap) and the bearing edges were formed and soldered into the shell (#3A & 3B). Modern shells are spun and the bearing edges are flanged (there was a flange illustration in a recent post). See the images below (images from AK Snares which I annotated)

[IMG]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=36700&stc=1&d=1323635046[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=36701&stc=1&d=1323635111[/IMG]

I like the die cast hoops, with its greater mass, as they are much more "musical" than the cheap triple flange hoop. If you doubt it do a simple test and suspend both type of hoops and strike them with a stick and tell me which one sings - it sure aint the triple. The die-cast hoop is generally louder, has a higher pitch, and way more sustain than the triple flange hoop.

Also there is some myth that needs to be put to rest, which is the notion that a die-cast hoop somehow "chokes" a snare. Heck the hoops don't even touch the shell, so I don't quite get how they would choke it.

I love the last version of the P-87... but it isn't "stock" on the latest snares, so I usually go with the P-86 Millennium throw-off as I really don't care for the P-85 in the least bit.

Tube lugs for aesthetic reasons.

Don't buy into the hype that the "early" modern BB's from the 70's/early 80's are somehow superior to the latest ones or that the later ones somehow lack the "mojo" because they certain don't. There seems to be no shortage of folks willing to move up to the $2K mark those earlier drums on eBay but I really don't get why, as the construction is essential unchanged and the shell is still from "old growth" copper alloy, so why pay a premium for a drum that is still in production. I say get a new one and make it personal - make your own memories. Now if you're looking for an investment....

Cool post Hoppy!

The modern BB's are every bit as nice as the originals. Brass is bright, responsive and articulate.

For just over $500, a new Monroe, American made BB can be had. What a deal!

-kellyj

That was indeed a most excellent post.

I think it'll be closer to $650-700 after all is done though, I haven't seen any for 500, other than B stock. Which I'm not sure if I want to go B stock, even though I'm pretty sure they just have aesthetic flaws. At least for a new one, 6.5X14, tube lugs. Still a decent amount to pay for such a drum, but my wallet still won't be too happy :P

Saw a number of BB's on Ebay, not B stock for around $550. Got mine on a close out sale new in the box for $400. They are out there if you look.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Ludwig-LB416-Black-Beauty-5x14-Smooth-Brass-Snare-Drum-Imperial-Lugs-/150707471863?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2316dd85f7#ht_2824wt_1103

Ah but alas, I'm seeking a 6.5x14.

Don't be afraid of "B-Stock" as it can be a great way to save some money - especial if there is a decent return policy if you're really not happy with it.

I have a late 70's/early 80's BB (L417) and a mid-80's hammered bronze (L552KY), which I was curious about the alloy composition. I took them to work and did a PMI test on them and found out exactly what alloy they were made of.

I was surprised that it was different than most commercial brass and is acutally closer to what is called German silver or Alpaca. Yes, under the black coating my shell is more silver in appearance in contrast with the yellow / gold color (or traditional brass) of my LB2009BT. The L552 is consistant with what can be called "commercial" bronze which is in the 90%/10% Cu /Zn* alloy neighborhood.

* as a very rough generalization Bz = Cu + Sn | Br = Cu + Zn .... so that makes the Ludwig "bronze" closer to the brass family

Hey Supro,

I have a 6.5X14 B stock Black Beauty and there are no detectable flaws in it at all. Not even cosmetic. I went with the P-85, Imperial lugs and blue/olive badge for $489 (can't remember where I bought it).

Sounds wonderful. It really does everything well and is quite the workhorse drum. The guitarist in my band (a fine drummer himself) recently commented that he prefers the sound of the Black Beauty over my other snares ('41 Ludwig 7X14 maple, '30's Leedy Reliance 5X14 NOB, newer Yamaha copper 5.5X14 and some 5X14 COS stencil snares)

Cheers,

Ryan

> .... so that makes the Ludwig "bronze" closer to the brass family

Thanks Hoppy! Now I know why I love the sound of my hammered bronze supra so much. It produces an almost warm, woody note. Not as ringy as my COB. The hammering really dries it out.

John