GoneDrumming - Thank you!!! I just logged in to correct my post and you already did! I do now understand the situation! Ha...ha...ha...”political answer”.

So am I on track to think that the L&L Pioneer and the L&L Universal were Ludwigs new more economical lines at that time. If so, then the shell changes would likely correspond to this time period to some degree.

crash - Thank you! That is what mine says too, and I believe that that would be 1928, to until they put the badge around the vent hole and moved the vent closer to the strainer, like 1933.

The Ludwig Standard was, well, the standard (10 lug). The Pioneer was the mid-line (8lug) for a while, then after the Conn purchase, it appears that the Universal (a name that had been used prior to the Conn purchase of Ludwig) became the the six lug metal drum and the Pioneer still hung in as a mid-line drum but with 8 lugs. So to summarize, at some point during the transition, it appears that the Universal name was dropped by Conn/Ludwig and the Pioneer was the 6 lug offering for a few years, then things sorted back out to Pioneer 8 lugs, Universal 6 lugs. Oh!! And to confuse things a little more, Slingerland had a Universal back then too...Trademark shmademark.

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=7058&highlight=slingerland+universal&page=2

Phewww need to make a spreadsheet.

GoneDrumming - Please, can you make a spreadsheet for this?!! It seems that you’re referring to the late 20s here. Is that so? I noticed that the Universals early on had an older style strainer until the 1930 L&L that you showed in the photo that had the better strainer. I am trying to stay focused on the drums with that 1918 strainer. Yikes!!! Thank you!

Be careful to not categorize the models by the number of lugs. Standards were available in 8 or 10 lug. Even early versions of the heavy brass shells used on the Standards had 6 lugs.

So the Pioneer progessed from a 6 lug drum to an 8 lug drum as time went on. I know the stamp became the badge. In the 30's the Pionner was 8 lugs and the 6 lug was a Universal. I had never paid close attention as I was only interested in the Standard models.

I also think it is worth noting that there were alot of transitional things going on in the 20's and you may never know precisely what happened when.

Here is an interesting blend. It is a heavy brass two piece shell (Standard model type) with 6 lugs, but it also has the banded steel hoops with the stamped L&L. It could be that the hoops were replaced, but I doubt it since the shell doesn't have the stamped script Ludwig. Oh yes, it also has the PatPen pioneer strainer....

http://cgi.ebay.com/1920s-Ludwig-Snare-Drum-Excellent-Condition_W0QQitemZ250587740613QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintgae_Drums_Percussion?hash=item3a583179c5

Powertone - Thank you! Good points about the lugs. This will help keep things straight and not confuse the timeline. It is especially important not to mix up the early 6 and 8 lug snares of this style with the later emergence of the Pioneer model.

Its almost impossible to sort out what changes were made by an company in the twenties,And as the two piece shell were I believe made by a outside contractor,I read that somewhere?. I'm also interested in the 338/339 strainers,now most are made of brass except for the lever/cam arm which is made of steel,but some 338's have the body and gut plate made of steel also,I have abpout 10 338s and 3 are all made of steel,I also haver one p339 the rim mounted strainer and this has a steel body with a brass gut plate???

There you go. Dioin...

sammypenn - Thanks a lot for your input. Your account of your strainer collection is important stuff here. If they are still on the original drum we might be able to get a timeline on their evolution. I sure would like to know when those strainers changed parts. If you would, Please post photos of each different strainer and the drum it is on/from. I know I’m asking a lot from you here, but it may help reveal many secrets of the timeline!

Even though the shells may have been made somewhere else the production changes can possibly still be detected for the shells and hint at a timeline. The shells don’t appear to have had that many changes. I feel much of the confusion is associated with not cataloging and listing a good timeline (folks may have felt the drum they had was from an earlier date than what it really was and vice-versa etc.). I think most of us agree, there essentially were 2 types of shells from the 1918 to 1932 (unless we discover there were multiple “thick style” and multiple “thin style”). If the shells were tooled much more by hand in the earlier days that would be one thing , and usually when something goes into “Mass Production” the machines do more of the work and this could be what we see in the thinner shells from the time period I’ve mentioned. Ludwig doesn’t seem to have gone back to a thicker shell, or did they?

Thanks again sammypenn!!!

:)

Just for the record, when someone mentions a 2 piece shell, what are they describing and can we see an example of that type of shell? Of course where and when it was made and other details (strainer marks) would help fit it into the timeline.