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How to get a Dark Side of Moon Snare type of sound? Last viewed: 9 hours ago

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From BerneseMtnDog

those Ashlys are pretty good for individual tracks but not on the mix bus. Nowhere near transparent enough.

I gotta disagree here though. I'd rather use some kind of '70s compression on the stereo bus than none. That's like not having a car and scoffing at a free '93 Taurus. In my experience the Ashly adds lots of excitement to the final mix compared to beforehand. This is all moot anyway. Digital is just about the worst piece of trash I have ever encountered. Listen to these recordings I made of this VERY same drum set only on a vintage 1978 Teac 80-8 Tape machine. The drums sound so much more like Dark Side than digital can allow. I guess I just sort of answered my own question. I just need to raise 1200 bucks and get all of my tape machines working again. But just listen to how good this analog stuff is. I even use vintage '60s 1/2" tape on my 80-8!

http://psychedelicsound.yolasite.com/resources/studiosnds.mp3

[IMG]http://psychedelicsound.yolasite.com/resources/stuuuu.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://psychedelicsound.yolasite.com/resources/IMG_1555.JPG.opt668x502o0%2C0s668x502.JPG[/IMG]

Posted on 11 years ago
#11
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I understand the joys of analog. I have an Ampex AG440-C 1" 8 track from the 70's which is a professional format. Just because your limiters were made in the 70's doesn't mean they're worth using in certain applications. If you like them that's cool. I still think you're squashing the bejeezus out of your mix.

Steve

1967 Slingerland 12,13,16,20 White Satin Flame
1968 Slingerland 12,14,16,20 Light Blue Pearl
Posted on 11 years ago
#12
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By golly I think you are pretty close already. I don't think it matters how you get there - as long as you get there. I think your snare is very close to his sound. It does not really matter if your heads are worn, so long as you get the sound out of them that you are chasing.

You may indeed be squashing you mix as others say. I say that because this sample is solo. There are no other instruments added to it. Once other tracks are added, it will totally be buried. I bet his raw track heard solo did not sound this squashed. That being said - I think you have an excellent start.

Please let us know what you (or anyone else) learns from him through FB messages.

Groovy room BTW!

I had a great day! Instead of sleeping in and wasting the day, I got up at 8 and I had all my slacking done by noon!

2Timothy1:7
Posted on 11 years ago
#13
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Thanks, but no such luck. Nick mason, they deleted my posting question in 5 seconds. I hate people who interview these guys because they refuse to ask anything interesting, and I hate these guys too. You think between bob Seibenberg and nick mason one of them might want so share those tuning and accessory techniques but nothing. No offense, but those guys have sucked hardcore since 1979 anyway so what's the use in asking them. I seriously have learned nothing posting here. And I learn nothing talking to drummers or people at music stores. zzzZZZzzzzz

Posted on 11 years ago
#14
Posts: 1040 Threads: 106
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You probably know more than them...

Sysl krysu nenahradi!

-196?-72 6ply White Oyster Amati
-1960s 3ply Red Sparkle Amati
- Zildjian, Paiste, Zyn, Istanbul

http://bandzone.cz/blueswan
Posted on 11 years ago
#15
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haha well I tell ya, I've listen to floyd live in 1974 and the snare has more of a tight, fusiony type of sound. It has nothing to with the thick, super punchy and dense sound found on DSotM. Either he went with an entirely different approach to tuning on stage than in the studio (which is entirely possible) or his snare sounded fusiony in the studio..........it's just that electronic trickery is able to produce such a synthetic sound. That I get. If you listen to this sound sample I made I don't really remember the snare sounding like that in the room! Somehow when acoustic instruments pass through vintage tape and vintage mixing boards they take on a very fat, electric synthetic sound.

But sure....nick's snare sound on Division Bell and Delicate Sound of Thunder etc, it's just nothing at all like Dark Side. In fact, the follow up album Wish You were Here shows us a snare drum that's not at all as harmonically complex as the DSotM snare sound. Wish you were here is just straight up tuned low and muffled, not as high pitched as Dark side.

Posted on 11 years ago
#16
Posts: 5550 Threads: 576
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i can see the dilemma hear but my approach to dark side of the moon was to mix it up with the hats and i was able to come close with the snare tightly tuned...

April 2nd 1969 scarfed pink champagne holly wood and 65/66 downbeat snare, and , supra same year very minty kit old pies
66/67 downbeat with canister
Super 400 small round knob
1967 super classic obp





once the brass ceases to glitter, and the drum looses its luster, and the stage remains dark, all you have left is the timbre of family.
Posted on 11 years ago
#17
Posts: 6524 Threads: 37
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From SongJohn

Thanks, but no such luck. Nick mason, they deleted my posting question in 5 seconds. I hate people who interview these guys because they refuse to ask anything interesting, and I hate these guys too. You think between bob Seibenberg and nick mason one of them might want so share those tuning and accessory techniques but nothing. No offense, but those guys have sucked hardcore since 1979 anyway so what's the use in asking them. I seriously have learned nothing posting here. And I learn nothing talking to drummers or people at music stores. zzzZZZzzzzz

You need to hit that snare at least twice as hard.

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 11 years ago
#18
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I think you are asking a question that really has no suitable answer. You would do as well asking Alan Parsons how he captured that sound as you would asking Nick Mason how he tuned his snare.

As mentioned, odds are he used a coated Ambassador for his batter head and whatever may have been on his snare side at the time. The head(s) may have been old or may have been new. I am sure there was some muffling involved, but possibly not as much as you think. I only have access to "Money" currently, but that snare does not sound all that detuned to me. Your initial track was fairly close, but I would agree it is a pretty squashed which is typical of the time period, but maybe a bit much in your case, especially when you include other instruments over the top.

To that point, we often hear drum sounds in the context of an entire band playing and we somehow imagine the sound that we hear is the actual sound of the drum in the recording. In reality, if you could solo up the snare drum or bass drum, you would generally find that it was a bit or even a lot more complex than what you originally thought. Of course, in the 70's we did tend to completely kill the sound of an actual drum but perhaps I should not go there as I do have strong feeling on that subject.

Most drummers will spend a lot of time trying to tune their drums to sound like their favorite album. The reason I say this quest (as it were) may have no suitable answer is simply because acoustic drums in a room, generally do not sound like recorded drums in the booth. If you walked into any recording studio and listened to the engineer's monitors and then walked out onto the tracking floor, that sound will be very different. You would go from a very detailed controlled sound to a blitzkrieg of high end and general wash. It was true in the 70's and it is true today. If you listened to the playback of DSotM and walked onto the tracking floor to stand next to Nick Mason, it would be a very different sound. Unless you have that snare drum, with those head and snare combinations, tuned the same, placed in the same spot of the same room, with the same mics, mic placement, desk, outboard gear, tape machine and you happened to be Nic Mason and you had Alan Parsons engineering, then it still wouldn't be exactly the same...but it might be close.

If I were trying to more or less replicate that sound, I might consider a head with a bit of muffling to start with. Perhaps a Remo coated CS or an Evans Genera Dry HD. My guess is that the batter head was tensioned in it's mid range. I have no idea about the snare side head, however, I generally favor a pretty tight snare head. Try a 42' strand snare, a 20 strand and a 16 strand and see what YOU like. From a quick listen to "Money" there was a decent amount of actual snare wire in the snare sound, but that may have nothing to do with the number of snares and everything to do with the placement of the bottom mic in the mix and the way it was eq'd.

As Oddball mentioned, you also need to consider your playing. The drum will sound quite different when played at different velocities, differing stick angles and technique (playing into or out of the drum for instance). It will also sound very different depending on the type of stick you use. A heavier stick with a broader wood tip will produce a much beefier sound than say a 7A with a nylon tip. The only way to create a consistent sound is to play consistently. Every backbeat needs to be played at the same velocity and angle unless, of course, there are some dynamics that come into play. Most pop and rock music relies on a drummer that can play a consistent back beat and that can be far more difficult than most imagine. Every stroke matters, and in my opinion, that will supersede any bit of head, snare, shell, tuning, mic selection, eq, processing or record media any day of the week.

As to live playing, keep in mind that audio in a live setting has the issue of exciting tens of thousands of cubic feet of ambience as opposed to the dozens of cubic feet in one's living room, car, or or the zero amount of cubic feet in one's headphones. In general, detuned drums just do not cut it live, especially back in the 70's when PA systems were a complete hodgepodge of bad ideas. Heck, at that point, audio companies were still stacking PA's as the idea of inverting a chain hoist to climb it's own chain had not been discovered so there was no reasonable option to fly those systems. Therefore, the hodgepodge of speakers were throwing their comb filtered and mis aligned output directly at the back wall of a venue creating an audio morass. Tuning drums up helped in letting them cut through those situations as Stewart Copeland had so correctly noted in the early days of the Police.

Hopefully this has been at least somewhat helpful. You can chase that sound forever, or you can develop a sound that you like, that fits the style of music you like and then enjoy your playing. It will never sound exactly like Dark Side of the Moon, but it can probably sound plenty close enough. Good luck.

tnsquint
Very proud owner of a new Blaemire Snare 6.5 x 14 made by Jerry Jenkins "Drumjinx"
Posted on 11 years ago
#19
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Just to reinforce squint's sage advice... The drum kit I learned on and played my first gigs with was a late 50's Ludwig black cortex kit. At gigs, that kit sounded killer. Dry, punchy, all the things that come to mind when you think, vintage Ludwig. At home, without the band's electric instruments eating up all the bandwidth, the drums had tone and they sang. The snare drum had over-rings and tones that you never get to hear live, or recorded. What came through was that FAT Ludwig sound. If I had tuned the drums to sound like that at home, it would have completely altered the sound of the drums in any live mix. Without the resonance and overtones, no FAT sound out the other end when played/mixed with the band.

That 70's 'cardboard' sound you hear from recorded Ludwig drums from that era is the result of drummers tuning their drums, (removing reso heads) and muffling the crap out of them trying to get live drums to sound like they do on recordings. Huge mistake. It's why the drums sound so dead recorded. Think; Glen Fry.

Chasing a specific sound is like chasing a greased pig. Get as close as you can and call it a day.

BTW, I detest digital recording too! I started recording back in 65' when they'd mic the room and record a live performance to tape. That's how you get that FAT sound. Not by squeezing and digitizing each and every note to death so that it snaps to a grid. Ugh! It all sounds so sterile. I'm with you... fix the tape machines and start over.

John

Too many great drums to list here!

http://www.walbergandauge.com/VintageVenue.htm
Posted on 11 years ago
#20
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