Purdue,

That is a great observation and one that more drummers need to consider. The downside is that we all play very different. Velocity, stroke, playing into or out of the instrument etc. all have a direct impact on the sound of a drum kit.

I had never considered this until I was in college. The jazz department put on a concert with several different ensembles in a ballroom setting with no stage. Our percussion instructor came to the concert but sat on the back row so that he was only listening and not really seeing anything. The next day he asked me if we swapped drums and cymbals between ensembles. I told him no, that we had only swapped cymbals. He said he was shocked as the same kit sounded completely different with two different drummers. At that point I became acutely aware of how a drummer "sounds" behind a particular kit.

That begs the question: how does one get to hear his or her true sound from an audience perspective? I don't think you can just put the bass player up there for a few minutes. Always a conundrum.

Great post Purdie.

I have heard "my" drums (my tuning, my actual drums) sound so different than how I have heard it both from behind my kit and in a session. I have been recorded many times. I have heard my drums sound AMAZING, and I have heard my drums sound like dog doo doo.

Interesting stuff as always, Mr. Shuffle!!!!

I always have someone else play my kit during a sound check & mix it down myself, it's not exactly the same as you playing but it's close. As drummers we sometimes get shoved to the back in the mix...that doesn't happen if you have your own small mixer & just run direct line-outs. They can turn you down, but they can't screw up your sound! Worked with WAY too many Tin-Eared Combo Soundmen/Lightmen/Roadies/Bouncers that couldn't mix a Rum & Coke, much less a drum kit!

It also gives you an idea of how your kit really sounds, sometimes we fall in love with something because of it's name/cost/age/looks (like chicks-LOL) & think that it's gotta sound good, because it's ___________ (fill in the blank) when in reality it sound like $hit!

Purdie,

So sorry for misspelling your name. Apparently my spell check was fixated on Joe Paterno.

More like, Col. Sanders! LOL

John

Here's where the benefit of a drum-playing grandson (8 yrs) and the drums set up in the living room (temporarily) comes in. He doesn't play them quite the way I do, but the sound of the bass drums out front is far different from behind the kit. It's helped tremendously during the tuning/muffling process to hear them played in a big room while I'm in another room. I don't hear the resonance nearly as well behind the kit as out in front.

Yep! The sound of the bass drum, more than the other drums, sounds very different from in front. It really caught me by surprise. The drums sound so different to me from the drivers seat. I like a 'live' bass drum and toms. If any, I use minimal muffling. The drums -sing- from where I sit. But out front, the ring tones are gone, lost in the music, while a rich warm tone is left behind that cuts perfectly through the electric guitar/bass/horn/keyboard. If my drums weren't left 'open' the way I tune them, they would sound dead, flat, like cardboard boxes in the overall mix. The lesson for me I guess is, don't use muffling if you're playing live. Mixed in with all the other instruments, to my ears, the drums sound much better un-muffled.

I hope Bermuda reads this. I'd like to hear from a working pro about how much muffling he uses on his drums in a live setting. Mr. Schwartz are you out there? Your thoughts please.

John

There are a few reasons that drums sound different out front or in a room or on 'tape' than they do sitting behind them.

1) room acoustics

2) mic position compared to the drummer's ear, especially with the kick. A drum sounds very different to a mic a few inches away from the head - or completely inside a drum - vs the drummer's ear at 18" or so from the head.

3) mic type and it's particular characteristics

4) EQ/compression/reverb or other FX

5) sound from reso heads that isn't apparent sitting behind the drums

6) probably something obvious I'm missing, but let's stick with the items above.

We probably never really know what our kit sounds like out front, unless we can get someone to play EXACTLY like we do: same velocity, same cymbal technique, same kick technique, same rim/head ratio on the snare, same balance between drums, etc. But having some playing is better than none at all for getting an estimate of how the kit sounds.

For live muffling, I go pretty simple. Nothing on the toms or the snare, and that seems to work well in most venues. The kick is ridiculously padded for 1) better foot response and 2) better sound control out front. Yeah, it's 'click click click' from behind the kit, but out front - where it matters - it's rich, punchy, round, and even has some resonance (which it should NOT have with all those pillows! Yay Ludwig Keystones!)

Anyway, when I hear my kit in my mix, it doesn't much matter what it sounded like acoustically (although it's pretty nice as well...) I can get an idea how it sounds to the audience... where it matters.

Now, in smaller and unmiked venues (bars, etc) I will leave the kick wide open, and control the ring a bit with Evans EMAD coated heads, using the wide ring. There's a perfect balance of tone, thump, boom and definition, without an obnoxious, bangy sound. I should add that I mostly use a heavy-ish reso (Evans EQ3) to further help control the ring. Definitely mic-able inside, but sounds best just outside the hole or from a few feet in front.

There's some consistency between the touring and clubbing scenarios though. Although it seems counter-intuitive, low-tuned drums rarely translate well. They tend to sound dead and thumpy, even though we think they have a lot of resonance and boom. I keep my toms in particular tuned slightly on the high side, so they 'cut' better. And, they sound plenty low in pitch. Same for the kick. I keep my 26 like a 24, 24 like a 22, 22 like a 20, and my 20 like another 20. :) They all sound great, and seem like they're tuned correctly for their size, even though they'd probably be considered a bit high by some standards.

But, we all have different standards, and there's really no correct answer. However we all strive for the same thing: to have our drums sound good. And, we all must realize that what sounds good to our ear behind the kit may not sound good from the listener's perspective, and that we have to be willing to adjust accordingly.

A lot of drummer's bristle at the idea of someone else making suggestions or otherwise controlling the drum sound, but those people - foh engineer or recording engineer - are the very people in a position to determine what sounds good. The drummer, from where he sits, or even listening to a headphone mix, has only a partial idea at best of the resulting sound.

Bermuda

PS - I'm serious about the kick pillows, the top one is a memory foam pillow and VERY dense:

[img]http://www.bermudaschwartz.com/images/paddedkick.jpg[/img]

Bermuda... thanks for the mini-Master-class bud.

Damn, the bass drum has so much stuffing I'm surprised there is -any- sound coming out the other end. It's funny though how it works. The bass drum at the studio where we rehearse or record is full of laundry. (literally!) Jeans, shirts, underwear, no BS. It sounds 'deader than Disco', but great recorded.

I was just genuinely taken aback when I got to hear my kit from out front. It was an enlightening experience. Thanks again for your input. You da man!

John