Information is always good. But sometimes it just can't be that black and white. Examples... I've got a '64 bass drum with natural interior. I've got date stamp '65 drums with 5 digit serial numbers. I've got 65 drums with red felt mufflers and some with white felt mufflers. There are just so many exceptions with these things.

Mike

microswitch,

This type of information is handy to have. However, when one attempts to present this type of information in a condensed manner for quick reference, much of the nuance of dating and authentication of vintage drums is lost. I would be careful about viewing as strict and absolute what particular serial numbers or physical characteristics of a Ludwig drum will appear during a particular time frame.

It appears that you are using the serial number information developed by Rob Cook (check your serial number range for 1964 - you have an extra digit), but it is not the most accurate or complete information currently available. Also, the overlap between serial numbers and the calendar years in which they were used is not shown in Cook's numbers or any time one presents non-overlapping ranges of serial numbers as belonging to particular calendar years. This is a common error in dating of musical instruments or really most collectibles with serial numbers.

It certainly was not meant to replace the extensive plethora of informations available on line or on Vintage Forums, but a quick general overview. In any case, if things do not match, it would prompt the user to investigate even more and learn of a new exception to the Ludwig extensive list of "out of the norm" manufacturing processes.

I'm not sure where you obtained this information sheet, but this really confuses me on all aspects of the history of the company. I think we need some cross examination from some proper Ludwig guys.

Yea, this to me only makes matters slightly more complicated. Each drum is very specific, and no quick sheet can help truly guide. I think it can only serve to hurt honestly. Take for instance - if a Drum Shop ordered a virgin Ludwig shell ( meaning just lugs ) They could install any mounting hardware,tone controls,etc... No chart can account for this. There was recently a kit posted that is for sale from Steve Maxwell with an original 16" bass drum. The set turns out was ordered by a drum shop and custom assembled using Rogers swiv-o-matic mounts for the tom. Now technically this kit is original as it was ordered that way, and customized per the exact specifications of the customer. Sadly there are way too many variances and instances such as this where a quick sheet is of no help. Another good example is what was written by the OP-

" For example a 1964 13" Tom may meet the 3 ply mahogany-poplar-mahogany and interior white paint with a badge serial of 265589 indicating the year of 1964, however the shell is drilled for a Round Knob muffler which only became available in 1968 indication a false badge or a false shell, bet certainly not a 1964 original 13" Classic Tom. "

So if I had this tom, you'd tell me that it was a fake? Or perhaps re-badged? What if a shop ordered it with no tone control because someone liked the Slingerland tone control ( which does have the same hole spacing as the Round Knob tone control ) This is where the issue is. Let's examine the grommet, because as we all also know - Ludwig was notorious for having badges that didn't match with year, as they were known to re-fill badge boxes before being completely empty.

That's just my 2 cents. I see where you're coming from, and I believe the idea is good. But unfortunately there are just so many circumstances behind many of these drums, that it's hard to have a quick sheet. And as we've seen we can't instantly say cut down, later modification, etc... because people ordered their kits with these anomalies.

Also - the Granitone first appeared in '78 on the Combo Kits. It was not used in 73,74,or 75, And was never used on higher end kits, but rather entry to mid level kits such as the Combo & Rocker.

Granitone was actually first listed in the '68 Ludwig Standard catalog. It was also used on regular line of drums as early as '71. I had a early 70's Red Sparkle Jazz Festival that had it.

I was clearly unaware of that. I thought it was used on lower end drums starting in the late '70s as it seemed a couple companies in that time were doing some form of interior coating. I am by no means a 100% Ludwig expert ( nor have I ever claimed to be ) So I again apologize on that.

Though ( again, not 100% ) weren't the standard drums considered a lower line? Not necessarily entry, but not top level either. However I do know that serial number guides don't work with those. But I was correct in the regard that no higher level Ludwig's had the Granitone interior. Basically if it has Granitone, it plays by a different set of rules regarding dating. Is that a better way to put it?

Jay

Believe me..I was not trying to sound like a know it all, because I certainly don't! I was just putting forth another example of how this stuff is just not cut and dry. There are many transition periods to consider as well as the out of the norm stuff.

The Standards were considered a budget line. They used the same 3 ply shells as the Classics and the Club Dates. Just different wraps and hardware. And you're correct in that they had a separate serial number system.

I think the regular line of Ludwigs did use the granitone in the early 70's. Like I mentioned, I had a Jazz Festival that did and that's certainly a top of the line snare for Ludwig at that time. Ludwig also later called the brown speckle interior Granitone and was used on the Rockers and such, which were a lower line.

Mike

Mike,

No worries, I didn't take it as you were. But this does go to show exactly why a chart can be tricky when dealing with Ludwig. When you take into account all the factors it's mind boggling. Heck, your Jazz Festival could have been a custom order, or maybe they made those with Granitone for a period of time? Who knows ( not me,lol ) But yea, this is why It's hard. But also what makes it fun.