How is it that you (Strangefish) can put this "issue" to bed?

Maybe for yourself, that is true, or those who agree with your view, true again, but not for others.

I'll put myself to bed, thank-you very much.

I think I've been discussing this topic in another thread. What the heck? How did I do that???

Too many freakin' polls, that's how !

I'm going off now to do a slight clean-up and resto on my turn-of-the-century Lyon @ Healy marching drum.

When I figure out which Era/Vintage/and Whether I Want to Play it or Not, I'll be back with some pics.....

"My posting was in response to the above comment, which had a distinctly didactic air about it. I felt that his was not the gospel according to fact, but personal opinion; so while we were in didactic mood, I set out the gospel according to the facts. If anyone wants to argue with my facts then we can further this issue and maybe reach a final resolution, because so many posts have discussed the absolute meaning of 'vintage' as it applies to drums. I felt it necessary to move beyond opinions and into the realm of reality. I am hoping everyone out there will either correlate or debunk my dissertation by declaring my facts as actual or incorrect, and, again hopefully, positing an agreeable alternative. So far, all I've seen are criticisms of my effort rather than discusions about the content of my posting. I was expecting a little more of the slings and a little less arrows." -also originally posted by strangefish

Strangefish, I need to commend you for trying to do something which may prove to be an exercise in futility, however necessary and important; that being touch the holy grail "TO DEFINE VINTAGE regarding drums" Or as you put it "let’s put this issue to bed once and for all"

I too believe the task of finding an agreed meaning is not simply cognitive gymnastics but in fact imperative to the future of buying, selling, collecting, playing, and communicating about older drums.

I applaud your foray into the etymology of the word itself but as you said it is of little help to the drummers’ issue, other than as historical reference.

The use of the term vintage as a noun, as in, it was a 2007 vintage pino noir, or it was a 1960s vintage drum, is not in question here so lets get that one off the table to begin with. In this context it is almost synonymous with the word year.

To frame the question at hand we are asking to define vintage as an adjective; as in "for sale, vintage Slingerland drum set".

Maybe I just said that for my own sake because I think we are mostly all on the same page here.

I want to explain here why I do not believe it is good enough just to "agree to disagree" Take for example the word "use", If I were to say "you may use my 1964 Gretsch drum set" and come to find out that you were in fact "using" my set as planters in your garden, it would suddenly become a major issue as to the importance of agreeing on the meaning of the word "use" before loaning them out.

Effective communication is dependant upon "shared meaning" if we do not have agreement as to the meaning of our terminology, how can we communicate, let alone conduct commerce?

So I'd like to continue to discuss your "dissertation" but first I'd like to hear comments on my opinions so far, because when I see really long posts it scares me away.

"I want to explain here why I do not believe it is good enough just to "agree to disagree""

Too bad. That's how it has to be. We disagree, whether you agree or not.

The market will be what it is whether or not you come up with a satisfactory conclusion as to what constitutes a "vintage" drum. The opinions are all over the place. Vintage simply means "when it was made". I like the 20 year classic car thing, because then it makes sense when some drums that are 80s drums make it into the vintage market. The word is largely a marketing term for sellers and a search term for buyers who are looking for collectible drums, so if 80s Yamaha RC's or 80s EAK Zildjians are collectible the term vintage is valid. Furthermore that term can be loosely used by sellers simply to get more looks and there's no rules preventing even mis-use of the term. If someone starts a topic on this VDF about Tama Superstars from the 80s and there are responders who believe they're vintage collectible drums, who am I to tell them they don't belong here?

You can decide to collect anything. The term is elastic in its meaning, different for whom uses it. I really don't care what you call it. Old fun drums. The question is, do you enjoy collecting them? Is there a group of people who also enjoy playing and/or collecting them? If there are a few people who get together and call it vintage, even if I don't agree, I think I should allow that, because there are going to be instances when I call something vintage and some others may not agree. I would like to have that freedom, and I will have it. The defining of the term won't limit its usage beyond the confines of the definition. The defining of the term is happening after the fact. If you decide something is collectible based on the definition of it, that won't prevent someone else from rendering the definition useless by their suddenly gathering interest in a line of drums and moving it under the umbrella of "vintage." That's why I like the loosely-defined time span of 20 years. It makes it easier. Some stuff like old Pearl Export series may not qualify in my mind but still, someone else may choose to use it. If you got several opinions that differ early on this topic, I'd say you will never arrive at a conclusion.

The reason they call it vintage is because alot of people can't spell nostalja right.

toodles

drumhack :p

Futile belligerence: the story of my life. P***ing in someone else’s pool: that’s not unheard of either. Talking about drums: I can do that till the cows come home. Getting to grips with a troublesome issue: that’s just meat and drink to me.

Debating societies thrive in seats of academic learning, why not here.

Let’s not get ourselves confused with the monosyllabic grunting of the Neanderthal guitarists who have been known to come to blows over the relative qualities of string gauge. One thing I’ve always loved about the drumming fraternity is its desire and ability to discuss drums and drumming all night long. Of course, we are also in the realms of ‘The Collector’ here, and that is a totally different ball game, is it not? Still, I feel we are now making fantastic progress regarding the flexible use of the word vintage. I hope we can keep it up Chaps.

"One day, when computer internet technology is but a distant memory, drummers who remain will sit by the fire with some mead, and tout the days of yore, when newbie Strangefish had a topic. Oh what a topic it was! No conclusions were made, other than to strengthen the bonds of the vintage drum fraternity. We met online, we discussed--ad nauseum--a word. But it was a durable topic! Dare I say it? Legendary! Now let's drum! Let's play our plastic inverted paint cans, in a feeble attempt to recapture the heights of drum technology before the great disaster of..." oh well.. I think I'll get a cup of coffee.

To continue: "There will be a single Whitehall 3 ply Japanese drum on a pedestal at the top of a 100ft. hill. There, the beat-starved villagers will trek up the hill to pay homage to the one remaining drum, that exhibited amazing qualities of resilience due to an abnormal figured maple inner ply. Kono, the 3-year-old boy wonder paint-can beater, noticed the plaque under the pedestal for all to see. Wondering about it, he ran down the hill and asked his great-grandfather, "What does 'V-I-N-T-A-G-E' mean, Gramps?"

"A tear rolled down Gramp's right eye as he took a deep pollution-filled breath and started with the story: "Oh, young Kono, if only you could have seen the day.. the day when there were many fine drums around..."

Clapping Happy2 I think I saw that movie!