You "hit" the drum, right on the head! Could not agree with you more.Jump For Joy

The difference in MY thinking is that used musical instruments are being sold for roughly 40-50% of their new price. Anything more than 50% isn't actually selling, and anything less than 40% is selling so fast that you don't even really know it's there.

Applying that to vintage Ludwigs vs. Legacy kits would mean that vintage Ludwigs should sell for somewhere around $1400 to $1800, but they usually don't, unless there's something special about them. I usually see vintage Ludwig kits NOT selling locally for around $800 (it's when they drop down to the $650 range that people start paying attention...). What's the difference? I. don't. know. I don't think you can compare Legacy kits to vintage Ludwigs, though, because the construction consistency is so much different. Plus, the vintage tubs have had an extra 40+ years to be banged around (or not).

...hmm...maybe I'll come back later when I have some kind of point to make...

Yes, I have seen ridiculously low-prices on some drum sets and been tempted to buy them, myself!

The reason I used the Legacy drums for comparison is because they are the modern answer to the demand for the old Ludwig 3-ply shell layup -which is what most all of the "famous" Ludwig drums were constructed from. The name "Legacy" refers to the historical Ludwig sound and the formula used to get it. Yes, I completely agree that the methods used to construct the new 3-ply shells are completely different than the old ways. My only real issue, here, is the fact that the MSRP of a Legacy (Big Beat facsimile) is over $6K!!! The "street" price is around $3500. But a real, vintage kit -the real thing -the real Ludwig vintage sound-making drums, themselves, are expected to sell for less than a stripped-down Camco snare drum shell or an Axis double pedal...or one K. Zildjian cymbal?!?!?!?!

Again, pricing is not a science. It's a crapshoot! Roll your dice and see who might be out there ready to bid...or not. It really boils down to two things:

1. What value a seller places on an item

2. What value a buyer places on an item

When the two points meet, everything else is moot!

Most people who want a vintage set are not going to buy a Ludwig Legacy classic set. I'm talking about people like myself. I'm not going to buy a Ludwig Legacy Classic set. The last set of B/O badge black cortex Ludwigs I bought were purchased from craigslist for $350. The market, ebay, local, dealers, they're part of the reason why vintage drum prices and the perception of them fluctuates so wildly. There's no consistency between dealers, because so many individuals are still a factor in the marketplace. If there were only dealers, and no ebay, prices would be different, maybe higher. If there were only individual sellers, and no dealers, prices would probably all be lower, and whoever was better at the hunt would find some great deals. Its a combination of all those factors that creates the perception of a higher or lower value for a set of vintage drums. I take it you feel the perceptions are somewhat distorted, by whoever it is you're talking about.

As is usually the case, I'm in agreement with you O-Luggers.

The only meaty bit that I could add is this ... there are WAY more dwooby-phlegms out there these days who think they are going to make a buck on The Proverbial Vintage Drum Market. Like cockroaches, they have continued to multiply and strip drums of parts and see a Ludwig drumhead on a MIJ and charge the ransom for a Stalion Stud. It hit maximum capacity, which signaled the drop in drum prices.

For those who've been around for a while know that this was predicted two years ago ...

"The vintage drum market fluctuates quite a bit over time. What was is not and what was not is...if you follow. ... The market for said drums has gone from almost nil to an all time high. We have peaked. It has already started its descent. It's the nature of a free market. Things rise and fall at the whims of demand. This has run its course and over the next couple of years we will see a marked decline in demand and price (one follows the other). It has priced itself out. ... That's the way markets go. What was is not. Some things hold their value better than others. Old Black Beauties will always demand a decent price (but even that has dropped a bit)."

So, what's the moral? There isn't one. Just hang on to what you've got and fight the urge to give them away at today's ridiculously anemic prices.

here here, i like the Renaissance part oh to get out of the dark ages...maybe when my daughter turn 29 shes 9 now i leave it to her legacy.... say by the way how to become a appraiser for rare drums this mite be the place to start some kind of certification like antique appraisers or vintage muscle cars the insurance co would love that

I won't rant about vintage drum and cymbal prices because I live on the fringes of collecting. I hope that the over-valuing by sellers of certain brands keeps on keeping on. I'm certainly no expert on authenticating every tension rod, screw and washer on an old drum for accuracy. But, I have developed a pretty good feel for general authenticity of the brands of vintage drums, hardware, and cymbals that appeal to me (Slingerland, Leedy, Rogers and A Zildjians from the 50's and 60's). There is one brand I love that is terrific for an "anything is possible" vibe. Of course, I'm speaking of Walberg & Auge drums that usually include elements of Gretsch, Rogers, and Ludwig in addition to their own proprietary parts.

I have owned and played both Gretsch and Ludwig of the most highly sought out vintages. My personal opinion is that I'm very happy to leave these two brands to the people who love them. This places me in a position to find more bargains than the Gretsch devotees who would spend ten times as much for a nice mid 60's four piece round badge set than I pay for a nice four piece Slingerland set from the exact same time frame. I am also amused by the Ludwig lovers who will pay outrageous prices for one of the most common 60's Ludwig wrapped sets because Ringo played that color.

Having said the preceding, I am a bargain hunter for the brands that I prefer. The brands that I prefer appear frequently on craigs list or on eBay for very attractive selling prices. I owe a special gratitude to the legions of Ludwig and Gretsch fanciers for ignoring the drums that appeal most to me. I am also grateful to all those who consider uncle Stan's "silly looking old drums" they inherited to be things they need to get rid of to make room for the latest Asian import drum set that has an extra deep bass drum with little dinky toms hanging from cymbal stands and shiny new overpriced cymbals of questionable pedigree. I know that there are a lot of us out here who share similar thoughts about our favorite brands.

Unless you are only considering your personal perception of the market, then there IS no over-valuing by sellers. That's my point.

"Value" is decided upon by the individuals doing the deals. There is no real market price for vintage drums. The market is two guys in a bidding war one day and fifty guys the next day so there really is no way to quantify such an inconsistent demand.

For example: A Ludwig Super Classic drum set is pretty much THE vintage, American drum set. I'm not stating that to show which brand is "best" -or the one I like the most. I merely state it because the Super Classic configuration sold more than any other American drum set in history -by far. That fact may or may not hinge upon just the drums, themselves. It might be due to the fact that Mr. Ludwig knew a little something about marketing and business practices, too. Regardless...

Okay....according to eBay pricing, the average price that a vintage SC shell pack in a "common" color goes for is, let's say...$1K (just to keep the math easy). That could mean that the trend is that all vintage SC's sell for $1K....OR....it could also mean that one SC sells for $500 and another one sells for $1500. So, my point is: "How do you determine "over/under" valuation? A Super Classic in gold sparkle is one thing. A Super Classic in Citrus Mod is quite another thing to a collector. Sound-wise, they are the same.

The same thing holds true for the Downbeat configuration. If you can find a Downbeat kit in silver sparkle, and the seller values the kit at $2K, you might see that deal as being a pretty steep price to pay based upon the eBay average sale price. But a studio looking for a nice vintage Ludwig kit would pay $2K without blinking twice.....And find a Downbeat in Oyster BLACK Pearl???...well....yeah...you get the idea.

Some people will say, "I buy vintage drums for the sound -not the look!" Other people will state, "I don't really like the sound or the look. I like the historical significance." And still others will say, "Well Joe Morello played a Super Classic and he's my favorite drummer of all time, ssssoooo...." Whoever is out there on a given day (maybe ALL those people are looking) decides what the price and value of a vintage drum or kit is worth. WHY they sell for what they do is an abstract concept. Who can quantify abstract concepts? electricit

People come here and use this site more than any other drum website in the world to try and get a value on vintage drums. It's one of our most popular types of inquiry. I used to use eBay as the barometer for pricing things -because eBay was THE place where people sold such items. I'd give people a ballpark figure based on my best guess gauged from eBay. But, as I have already stated, my belief is that many of the eBay-wells are dry now. What's left on eBay are the dregs and rogues...the piece-meal stuff. So, of course, IF you use eBay NOW to gauge prices, then you are doing so on an eBay that's getting populated with items of diminishing desirability.

Consider the BEAUTIFUL and HIGHLY-desirable matched-down-to-the-washers vintage drum kits that have been cleaned, dusted, finely-tuned with new heads, etc. that are currently sitting in climate-controlled rooms in people's personal collections. Those kits are or will be sold, too...just not on eBay. And I guarantee you, the prices that those kinds of drums and kits sell for do NOT reflect eBay pricing.

I like good deals, too. And when I see a good deal out in the world -at a garage sale or wherever, then I'm bound and determined to pay as little as possible in order to maximize my potential investment and ultimate profit upon resale. Once those hidden good deals make it into my hands, the rules for pricing and valuation change drastically! I'm not going to lie. I have NO problem reselling a drum for $3K that I paid $5.00 at a garage sale for.

And, once again, please believe me...there are people I know who carry around more money in their wallet than I will make in a year's worth of gigs. If they want to buy something they like, they don't even ask the price. No disrespect to anyone, here, but those are the people I want as buyers! I want to sell to the people who have no problem with money and use it for fun and frolic.

Here's a good one: Can anyone tell me what the current value of a vintage Ludwig Jazzette kit is? Well, on eBay, there was just one sold to an overseas buyer for around $1800. Does that seem like a good deal? Okay, well there's a website that had a nice Jazzette listed for $3500 and it sold right away. Good deal? Okay, there is an overseas buyer who has a standing offer to me for $9K for my '69 Jazzette. Ridiculous! you say? Maybe. I still have the kit.

So, I ask again (rhetorically)...Can anyone tell me the current value? I see three different current prices. Which one is "right"? Answer: The one you're willing to pay. :Santa:

The real "lever" with vintage drum pricing and valuation is the fact that vintage drums -especially vintage AMERICAN-made drums were much more individualistic in their own era. Subsequently, modern manufacturing has made it financially unfeasible for companies to truly compete with each other design-wise. And the power in that is that they can't be made that good-old competitive way, anymore. This fact makes vintage drums finite. There's no replacing them once they are gone. In contrast, most all modern drums are basically made the same way -likely at the same factory in Taiwan. All hardware is basically the same. It's all been "averaged" to fit into specific price points, i.e., "student", "mid-line", "Pro", "Boutique/Designer" -and always considering the bottom line....meaning, "Hello, China? Yeah, I'll take 1 million tom tom rims in chrome and 1 million in black poweder coating... and 1 million tin badges that say "Made in U.S.A." There is none of the design-competition among the companies. I don't know about you guys, but I couldn't wait to see the new catalogs when they came out annually -just to see what was going to be new and different. Now, I already can imagine it all because it's all become predictable and boring.

So how can a new set of Ludwig drums be given a street price that far exceeds the price of the real thing -a vintage 3-ply kit, and have people standing up and cheering, when, at the same time, those same people would boo and hiss at someone asking $2K for a perfect vintage kit? I've seen it happen time and time again.

I have NO problem with ANYONE asking ANY price they want to ask when selling a drum or a drum set. Like I said, the seller who wants to try and get $10K for a scratchy Octa-Plus will learn their lesson...(Now, watch Octa-Pluses become the next great collectible drum set just to put me in my place! heh heh). My place is to cheer them on. I prefer the market UP for vintage drums.

The "good deal" ride wasn't going to last forever in the collecting world. I hope all the nicest stuff is in collections already. Once all those attics have been cleaned out and people who know drums find the treasures, then the market will shift again.

Maybe a better example would be vintage K. Zildjian cymbals???:Santa: