69 Catalog lists 4425 as a playboy model...

Thanks!

I have the online - from here - version of the 69 catalog and it is not complete - only the first few pages - and what I see doesen't list a playboy model.

I do see it here but the drum size is 12x8 and my drum is 13x9. It's dificult to see the lugs - I'm assuming they are the snare lugs on the double ended tom lugs. I can't make out what the tom hanger looks like but it may be similar to the one Gretsch used on the 47 tom I have??

http://www.gretschdrums.com/ebooks/catalog_44/index.html#/5/

If you have a photo of the drum from the catalog or even a description of the playboy drum kit which includes the 4425 could you contact me by email - I will use my personal email to contact you back that way you could send me the information? Or....is there any way you can scan the photo of the tom here?

Gary

Gary,

Your particular tom has been listed on eBay a couple times, I saw it in 2010 and again last month. It was incorrectly listed as an 8x12 in the auction I presume that you won (330798479040).

The model number is for an 8x12 single lug, separate tension tom, but I have seen one other 9x13 drum that had a label with the same model number (SN 16547). I am not aware that there was a 9x13 single lug, separate tension tom in a catalog. I have only recorded these two single lug, separate tension 9x13 toms and both possessed the 4425 model number.

Here are some of the model numbers that I have seen for 12 and 13 inch toms:

Tension:........Single.......Single......Separate......Separate......Separate.....Separate

Lug Style:......Single.......Single......Single..........Single..........Center.........Center

Finish:...........Lacquer.....Lacquer...Lacquer........Pearl...........Pearl...........Lacquer

Reso Heads:....None........Tacked....Tensioned....Tensioned.....Tensioned....Tensioned

Catalog:.........1955........1955........many..........many............1969...........1966

8x12..............4140............?.........4405...........4415.............4425............4435

9x13................?............4426.......4406...........4416...............?.................?

I suspect that, although not cataloged, the Playboy style tom in the 9x13 size would have been given the 4426 model for a pearl wrapped drum. It was not uncommon for Gretsch to use the same model number for different drums as the drums developed over time. When reused, they seemed to have a common head diameter, even as the number of heads, the tensioning or the depths changed. By the 1960s, it seems unlikely that there would have been plans to produce a 9x13 tom with a tacked on resonant head, so the number would have been available. With the exception of the early 4140 tom, 8x12 and 9x13 toms seemed to use the 44X5 and 44X6 series of numbers, respectively.

I do not know why your 9x13 would heve received a label with a model number for an 8x12 tom - mistake, failure to have a stamp that said "4426," limited production of 9x13 single lug, separate tension drums? There is much room for speculation, and I prefer not to speculate too much as to why it happened. It is an interesting question that your tom raises.

I will check against some price lists that i have to see if I can find mention of any other 9x13 single lug, separate tension toms.

I think that I have the portion of the tom mount that was attached to the tom. I do not have the portion that connected that to the bass. I acquired it on a damaged 8x12 center lug, separate tension tom that had lots of odd things going on (cracked shell, extra mount, wrap removed without removing lugs, so WMP wrap still under them). That particular drum was from the pre-label era. I will check my parts box to make sure I still have the mount.

Rick

PS: I would prefer you say that the serial number indicates an estimated date of 1963. I can not claim that my theory provides that level of precision, just that the theory is based upon review of a large number of drums and comparison to a number of other physical characteristics. It may just be semantics, but I do not want people attributing more precision to my guide than it warrants. This has happened with other drum dating guides and I want to avoid that to the extent possible.

Rick! Holy cow! (that's a geek term for ya haha) - you provided a very thorough answer here - wow! I'm impressed - and thank you very much. I'm in your book/guide a lot lately - lots of information there. I think I said this before, but I will say it again, this guide and all the work gone into it is very much appreciated.

Safe to say I can jot down that my drum is a Playboy tom from 1963 as best as can be determined?

Are you going to document the S/N 14566?

I've inspected the tag closely and looking at the surrounding silver sealer and edges it does not appear to be tampered with. The tag has some damage but it does not appear to be the type of damage one would associate with removal and reapplying. But, I'm no expert. Also, I don't know why on earth someone would go to all that trouble for a $25 shell.

On another note:

I did receive a refund from the seller for this drum

The drum had some damage - a crack - that was not disclosed in the sale. The seller said the damage was not there when he had the drum or when he shipped it - it must have been done in the shipping process. It was insured and the seller said to send it back. The shipping to me and back again was going to be twice what I paid for the drum. I also - very politely advised the seller that it was NOT packaged properly to prevent damage while being shipped. Further....I said the drum is a 9x13 NOT a 12" drum. He refunded me the complete amount of the drum and half the shipping and I kept the drum. He was very sorry and told me he does not do business to scam people. The drum was sold to him as a 12". He sold it without measuring and just assumed it was a 12. He was very sorry. I gave him full credit ***** stars in the feedback and told him I was very happy with the way he handled this deal and I would be happy to do business with him again........we hugged and everything is good.

Rick - I have an 8x12 Gretsch tom in Silver Sparkle I recently bought on eBay. It's a SSB#1 (Sept-Dec 1969) in your book. Let me know if you want the tag info and photos.

I wish I had my RB kit I bought in the summer of 1969.

Thanks,

Gary,

I already have your 9x13 tom in my database. It appears authentic, it just has a model number that we normally associate with the 8x12 center lug, separate tension drum. Personally I would not call it a Playboy model because that name was not in use by Gretsch (at least in a catalog) until several years after we estimate your drum was made.

Is your new 8x12 tom serial number 117355? If so, I already have it in my database. If not, I would appreciate any information you can provide.

I must caution you that my guide cannot provide a date estimate that is down to a four month span. I am only comfortable estimating to within a year or so. I suggest that you may be reading too much precision into the tables and taking what I state to be approximations and ranges as if they are exact numbers. In Table 9, I presented three reports of SSB#1 drums with original purchase dates in 1969, one in September and two in December. I am guessing that is where you are getting your range. However, those three reports do not act as boundaries, and do not mean any serial number falling between those reports are manufactured between those dates. It is simply not that exact. My theory is that serial numbers were issued and used in roughly sequential order, but not exactly sequential order.

This has been a problem with the Ludwig dating guides (particularly Ned Ingberman's Chart #1 and Ludwigdrummer.com's listing) and I really want to squelch the tendency when it appears with estimates based upon my guide. Sorry for the soapbox, but I want to encourage people to properly use my guide and felt a need to explain it when the opportunity presented itself.

Rick

Thanks again Rick

Yes my newly aquired tom is s/n 117355. I was reading too much into your guide - it's hard not with all the work gone into it. From now on I will use it as a rough guide for dating. Having said that.....your book is one heck of a wealth of information and I am very much enjoying it.

On a different note:

Is it true that Rob Cook is writing or has written a Gretsch Book....similar to the Ludwig book? I've heard rumours.....maybe read it somewhere.

Gary,

Thanks for the compliments and for understanding the caution with which I approach date estimating. I am almost finished with a serial number-based dating guide for Ludwig Standards from the 1968-73 period. I have also collected enough data on main line Ludwigs to prepare a new dating guide for Ludwig drums with serial numbers from 1963-1972 - Keystone and early Blue/Olive badges. (Ludwigs appears to have stopped date stamping in 1971, but used a date code for a short while thereafter.) I have gathered information from 1,000 drums which have both date stamps and serial numbers, so the resulting estimating tool will be based upon a greater number of data points than prior guides.

Rob Cook and John Sheridan have been putting together a book on Gretsch which is to follow the general format of the Ludwig book. Rob has mentioned it a few times on his website. I have corresponded with both about incorporating my serial number based theories into their book. My work was ready for publication in 2011 and their book was not yet ready, so Rob offered to publish it as a stand alone paper.

Rick

Cool Rick!

I've written 4 or 5 technical reports for Fisheries in Canada and understand the work that goes into writing a paper so I have a lot of appreciation for what you're doing here.

I'm picking up a Ludwig snare drum in a few days that I bought online. It's a Keystone badged Acrolite I believe. If you're interested I can send you a photo of the drum and closeup of the badge.

Gary,

If you can, please let me know your serial number and date stamp. If the drum was on eBay recently, I likely grabbed them, but it is nice to double check. I gather several other pieces of information, a list is provided on my website - www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com - under the "Report Your Drums" tab.

I am always happy to receive reports of Ludwig drums with serial numbers and a date indicator (usually a date stamp, sometimes a date code). I collect information on Ludwigs without date stamps as well, but they are not part of my core project. Reports on any Gretsch drum with a serial number are welcomed.

Thanks.

Rick