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Doesn't this look like a fake? Last viewed: 3 hours ago

Posts: 1273 Threads: 22
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From Drums008

The one in the old add is a 16".The 14" one from ebay doesnt seem right to me. Possibly a Cocktail drum that was cut down?

I was thinking about this, but wasn't sure if a cocktail drum is 14 or 16" D (too lazy to investigate further). Lots of possibilities. Again, the extra hole is the key. If it was an original drum, who in their right mind would drill a hole, there? (I hate extra holes.)

B

Vintage Drum Fan (Not a Guru)
Posted on 12 years ago
#21
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My 'best guess' is; They re-cut the bottom edge of the drum, re-cut the bearing edge and then used shorter tension rods to compensate. I'll bet the leg mounts had to be moved up too. But you can't see any extra holes inside the shell. The inside of the drum shows some of the factory lay-out lines for lug and leg-mount placement and it all looks pretty clean in there. Rather than the top lugs being to low, I think the bottom bearing edge has been re-cut and made shorter. It's the only explanation that makes any sense. Otherwise, the drum just looks a little weird. Something was done to it though. The guy shouldn't be asking top-dollar for the drum. Something ain't quite right with it.

John

Too many great drums to list here!

http://www.walbergandauge.com/VintageVenue.htm
Posted on 12 years ago
#22
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If you look up pics of a 14" round badge cocktail drum, the lugs wee spaced lower like this. I assume they added the bottom lugs in the same place so it would be symmetrical. Just a guess.

1964 Gold Sparkle Round badge 20,12,14
1970 SS Badge, Blue Satin Flame 22,13,16
1962 Tangerine sparkle, Gretsch. 18, 12,14, 5x14
1960's/70's Slingerland 18,12,14 silver sparkle
194? Slingerland "Rolling Bomber" Blue/white Duco 28,13,14,7x14
1940's Radio Kings. 26,13,16 WMP finish
Gretsch Anniversary sparkle 22,13,16, 5.5x14
Posted on 12 years ago
#23
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I've been saving pictures of drums from eBay for a long time now! Went through many of my Gretsch pictures and found 4 separate 60's kits with 14" floor toms. All have the spacing of the lugs pretty much like the eBay drum. Maybe this will shed some light that the floor tom in question is legitimate.

Mark

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Posted on 12 years ago
#24
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I agree with Purdie.."something ain't quite right". Looking at other pics of a Gretsch 14" FT, the badges are never centered between the top and bottom lugs. On the drum in question, it looks like an effort was made to center the badge. Along with the extra hole, huge difference in lug distance from top edge and bottom edge, questionable "period correct" wrap, and the old eyeball test, I'm lead to believe that this drum was not born at the factory. It's definately not worth the asking price and the ebay description is not telling us the whole story.

Posted on 12 years ago
#25
Posts: 2713 Threads: 555
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Yes - and the wrap, as you say below, questionable.

Questionable because the wrap of the day had little Hexigon pieces/flakes....the later wraps have random pieces/flakes. I'm going by what I've read and what I've seen personally.....so far. Although it is difficult to actually see the flakes in the photos the seller provided in the ad....they look random from the what I can see.

From hardbopman

I agree with Purdie.."something ain't quite right". Looking at other pics of a Gretsch 14" FT, the badges are never centered between the top and bottom lugs. On the drum in question, it looks like an effort was made to center the badge. Along with the extra hole, huge difference in lug distance from top edge and bottom edge, questionable "period correct" wrap, and the old eyeball test, I'm lead to believe that this drum was not born at the factory. It's definately not worth the asking price and the ebay description is not telling us the whole story.

Posted on 12 years ago
#26
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This is not my drum and I am not a potential buyer, so I do not have a dog in this fight. While I agree there are some things wrong with this drum, I think there is some incorrect information and speculation flying around right now. I will add my opinion to the mix, but will focus on the Q&A from the eBay listing:

"Q: Why are the leg mounts the newer style...without the exposed screwheads? Why are the lugs positions so far from the bearing edge? As no other pictures of actual gretsch drums show the lugs to be this far off? This wrap is not silver sparkle, it is silver glass...which wasn't available in the fifties or sixties. Also the tag shows a black mark...gretsch didn't cross out that information with a black marker until the seventies. You should state that this drum is not original in any way. Mar-10-13

A: Hello, and thank you for the interest in this drum I appreciate your insight. I will post your observations for all that are interested in the meantime to help the fellow Ebayers in their decision before making an offer. Thanks for looking"

My thoughts:

1. Leg Mounts - the bolt-through style with the exposed screw heads was generally phased out in the 1950s and replaced with the style which mounted from the back. It would be a bit unusual to see a bolt through style leg mount on a 1960s drum. That said, the mounts on this particular drum may be a more modern replacement that was available from Gretsch until a few years ago (the T-screws which secure the legs do not look original to the 1960s versions I have seen).

2. Upper Lug Location - I cannot explain the mounting location for the upper lugs. Production oddity? After market fake? Converted cocktail drum? Recut bottom edge making things look out of balance? Could be any of these or something else. I don't see extra holes or coverups on the interior, so they seem to be placed right where someone wanted them to be, whether that was at the factory or later. As Mark indicates, this spacing is evident in other drums pictured in eBay auctions.

3. Sparkles vs. Glitter - Silver Glass Glitter wrap was available in the 1950s and 1960s. The hexagonal sparkle was also available in the 1950s.

4. Black Mark - The black mark on the damaged label does not like the same "black marker through the guaranty language" that happened on a handful of drums in the 1970s. It just looks like a stray mark on what was left of the paper label.

All of the above is just my opinion, and I am open to others opinions, but this drum is not as bad as that particular question seems to imply, or at least is questionable for different reasons.

I own one 14x14 round badge floor tom. It has the following characteristics:

1. Leg mounts with concealed mount bolts, older style T-screws to hold the legs.

2. Lugs located close to edges, small sized lugs. Drum is very symmetrical looking. Short tension rods used for both batter and resonant sides.

3. Silver Glass Glitter wrap - not hexagonal sparkles

4. Paper label with serial number.

5. Round badge is mounted above center point.

Rick

Edit: Remember that by the time Gretsch started putting labels in its drums (circa 1962) that many of the items questioned had changed. The leg mounts no longer had bolts through them and glass glitters were prevalent.

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 12 years ago
#27
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hey all -

i'm the guy who bought this drum. i found the auction late and while i did the see mention of this controversy in the eBay posting, i didn't actually find this thread until i'd made an offer. i've been looking for a 14x14 silver glass glitter for several years (albeit not religiously) and hadn't seen them go for less that $700 or $800 on ebay. my offer was $500. in retrospect i probably should have offered even lower, but it was accepted so that was that.

i thought i'd weigh in now that i have the drum in my possession.

the back story is that i bought a set of round badges from ebay back in 2007. it was a funny configuration, basically exactly as pictured in the attached catalog image from 1969. 20x14 bass drum, dual 12x8 toms, 16x16 floor tom. i think i paid about $1200. all the drums are all original so far as i can tell, have tags, etc.

i've almost never used the 16", it's just too big for my taste, and i only ever use one 12" at a time.

while i'm as baffled as anyone by the extra hole, if this 14" is a fake it's an extraordinarily convincing one. comparing it to my 16", the wrap is identical, the layout lines on the inside are identical, silver sealer interior paint, etc etc. that black line on what's left of the tag is just a remnant of the black border around the words 'that great gretsch sound'.

the bearing edges are also identical to the 16". i don't think the cocktail drum theory holds up - the edges look old, the paint is uniform, nothing looks altered.

the leg mounts are definitely not original, or at least two of them aren't - those t-bolts are modern and the the threads aren't the same as the old ones. my theory was that maybe only the t-bolts had been lost and replaced, but i tried using one from the 16" and it doesn't thread.

tension rods are also mismatched, as noted by seller. and legs not original.

the other slightly suspicious thing is that the badge itself is a little loose - i can spin with my fingers. i know that happens to plenty of them though, so not necessarily an indication of fraudulence.

isn't it generally a rule of thumb that no two gretsch drums from this era were exactly alike anyway? maybe the extra hole is somehow original but made it out of the factory that way? i don't know, seems crazy.

anyway, i guess i feel like i did ok all things considered because the drum sounds great, absolutely fits with my others, i finally have a floor tom that matches my set, and it was still cheaper than i generally see 14"s going for.

here's my dilemma: i was considering selling the 16" and the additional 12" since i don't use them and since i just sunk $500 in this drum.

how feasible is it for me to figure out if the set i bought in 2007 is factory matched, and if it is, is it morally/economically reprehensible for me to split it up and sell off pieces?

it's such a weird configuration, i don't know if i'd get more for them selling them together or not. they're not museum quality - no major issues, but they're definitely a player's set, probably not a collector's set.

at the same time, if they've been together for 50+ years is it kind of criminal to split up the family just to make a few hundred bucks? i know they're inanimate objects. even so.

any thoughts are welcome.

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Posted on 12 years ago
#28
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This has been an interesting thread. I am glad you got the drum and it suits your purposes. Most guys here will tell you not to part out a matched set. Of course there may be some guys that are looking for 12" or 16" toms that would advise otherwise. It sounds to me like what you really need is a matching 14x22 so you can have two kits. Cool Dude

tnsquint
Very proud owner of a new Blaemire Snare 6.5 x 14 made by Jerry Jenkins "Drumjinx"
Posted on 12 years ago
#29
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$500. That's a fair price, given the "oddity" of the characteristics. It is a desirable size, vintage. I just didn't think that an unwary customer should be tricked into paying his asking price. At $500, I may have purchased it myself.

Posted on 12 years ago
#30
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