"Does anyone else see this?"

I honestly honestly do not. I have a respect for those with more history and understanding about these vintage drums than me (that's most of 'em) and I continue to learn from them and share with them. I try to remain humble enough to continue a conversation with those individuals in the hopes that I can glean even more cool tidbits and maybe ... just maybe ... on the off chance that I have something of value to add. I definitely take more than I give here. But, I believe that is the intent of this site.

Mind you, there are a few odd ducks, but by and large the vast vast majority of the members here are just a bunch of good ol' boys sharing neato stuff about even neater drums. I have gotten frustrated a time or seven, but that doesn't take away from our shared love of the details. It's just schoolyard fun.

Nope, don't see it at all. In fact, I've learned more about antique and rare drums from guys such as; Mike Curotto, Bun E. Carlos, and our own, Jolo to name a few, than I have from any other sources.

There are A-holes in every field of endeavor, drum collectors are not an exception I'm sure. Having said that, my experience has been that guys like I mentioned above have been generous in sharing their collections with us, and informative/instructive, in terms of the background and history of the drums they collect. Two years ago, Mike Curotto bought an 18" Ludwig stainless steel floor tom from me and paid me -more- than fair market value for it. He never tried to chew me down or to re-negotiate the price in his favor. It was a smooth as silk transaction and the man is a pleasure to know and deal with. Maybe I'm just lucky. But I just haven't run into any of the collectors you have apparently had bad experiences with. I'm not trying to minimize or negate your point, it just hasn't been my experience.

John

I can't say that I have seen this exactly...I have not seen the arrogant attitude you are describing. I HAVE experienced a deal that I really got screwed on, with a forum member on here, though I won't claim nor guess on the motive of that person, and just let God deal with it (He's much better at it than I!).

That said, all other times I have dealt with (deals) or even consulted with any other member on here, my experience has been overwhelmingly positive. I can't wait to go to the show in Chicago next year and must credit this forum with most of my drum knowledge.....and for that I am very grateful.

My one bad experience, as bad as it hurt, can not be an indicator of the members of this forum, as there are over 10,000 members on here. If I only have one bad experience out of all the positive ones, I am overwhelmingly blessed.

One other thing I will add here. If given the chance to rub elbows with the elite collectors on here, I will chose to focus on the common love of drums (no implication here). If I encounter that attitude, I would likely just decline to do business with them or just chose to overlook it and continue with the relationship so I can suck all of their knowledge off them! Being honest here! Put another way, in regards to any involvement with these guys at any level is that I am simply a drum-knowledge *****, or a drum-knowledge thirsty pig!

John

I would agree with Roger, Purdie and John. I have ben very blessed to have spent some time here learning about something I love. I don't have a lot to share from my end other than personal experience, but the wealth of knowledge here is deep indeed. As with so many things I think that intent can sometimes be lost in the written word especially when that written word has been hastily put down on an internet forum. There have been multiple instances of guys getting sideways with each other here simply because they misconstrued the meaning of one another's posts. That is unfortunately the nature of any online forum and should certainly not be an indicator of the heart and best intentions of those on this forum.

As to commerce, every deal is unique and everyone purchases or sells with their own motives in mind. This has been covered in several past threads, however, it appears to me that there tends to be the kind of issues you mention when someone is selling with the motive of making a profit while someone is buying simply for the love of vintage drums. Is there anything wrong with purchasing (or selling for that matter) because of a deep love of the instrument? Of course not, however, there is also nothing wrong with someone who is selling drums or parts for a profit. I am not talking about the Leecountymusic's of the world, but simply someone that sells drums because they like them, know about them and enjoy bringing in some income by being able to sell them at a profit. I am always bewildered when people somehow equate that with greed. The idea is to buy low and sell high if you would like to profit regardless of the market. That is simple economics and it should be applauded, not derided.

55 - The difficulty here may lie in the fact that your are -generalizing- your statement, as if speaking of drum collectors (in general) as being the way you described. 'Specific' drum collectors are some of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. I already referred to my dealings with Mike Curotto as being a positive experience from start to finish. I know Bun E. Carlos for several years from another forum (DFO) and again, like Mike, one of the very nicest people I've had the privilege to meet and interact with. Jolo is another guy who has always been willing to share photos, information and field and respond to questions about the drums he buys that he has shared with us. All of these guys and others I have not mentioned, (only because they are not members of any Internet forums,) have shown themselves to be generous, open and engaged with the larger drumming community (us.)

Maybe if you were more specific in your indictment of collectors, the misunderstanding part will be eliminated. Otherwise, your post, as a 'general statement' about drum collectors...

'That dog won't hunt'.

Name names!

John

Name names? Oh dear. I see nothing good coming of this.

Well, I probably speak for most of us when I say...huh? I just am not seeing that sort of thing. Certainly there are a lot of personalities on here and some are quite strong and some are occasionally off-putting, but that is truly just part of the human experience. To me that just adds to the charm.

As to your comments about lying about what someone paid for something...that confuses me. If I find a Black Beauty in a pawn shop for $50.00 and sell it to someone for $75.00 that is fair. If I sell that same snare for $575.00 and that was a reasonable rate for that particular drum, that is fair. If you paid $2,500 for that drum when I had it up on an auction because it was identical to the one your favorite drummer played when you saw him at Winterland in 1974 and you were with your high school dream date and she smelled intoxicating, and her hair made you feel kind of funny in a good way, and you have been dying to find one just like that and were willing to pay whatever it took to get it to recapture that memory, that is still fair. What difference could it possibly make what someone paid for an item that you are purchasing from them? The "passing our savings on to our customers" mantra is not all that applicable in the collectibles market.

I have said this many times (I think), It seems like people are generally unhappy with profit...unless it is their own. When someone else makes $1,000 on a snare drum they are perceived as greedy. When you make $1,000 on a snare drum sale, you think it is great business. Interesting indeed.

Oh, my brother... there are so many (too many) threads about deals gone bad, transactions that just went south and all manner of personal (names named) threads already. You just have to go back through the archive to see who had a problem with who and why. Sometimes you can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting a thread where someone is indicting someone else.

I hope this one doesn't go there too... I am genuinely sorry to hear that you had some bad experience(s) with another VDF member. Those things are usually best handled privately rather than in the forums. Public posting of such things always leads to flame wars.

You do have my empathy... I hear you.

John

55 - Sometimes we all need to be reminded that even though VDF is/can be, a friendly place, with some really great members, this is after all 'the Internet.'

The internet is a public place, sometimes not unlike a public men's room, you never know who is going to walk in. Most guys conduct themselves like adults and gentlemen, but every once in awhile, some cat will bop in and pee on your shoes rather than use the urinal like everybody else. The Internet, more than most other places where people conduct transactions, demands a bit of caution. The old axiom; 'Caveat Emptor' (Buyer Beware,) really applies here.

If you're doing a transaction with someone you do not know, ask some of the guys here (that you know you can trust,) if they have ever done business with the person. Solicit feedback -before- sending any $ to a stranger. Better yet, ask the seller to provide the names of a few people he has done business with so you can check his/her references. We all check references when dealing with contractors or other such individuals in business, why not for drum sales as well.

I've done transactions with a bunch of guys here, please feel free to contact me anytime via pm if you ever have questions. If it is someone I know and have done business with, I will be glad to share the result of my business experiences with them. If I don't know them, I 'may' know someone who has and I'll be able to direct you to someone who can provide the feedback you seek. If we don't look out for each other, nobody else will.

VDF is a pretty beach. However, there -are- some sharks in the water.

Again: Caveat Emptor. A little caution/wisdom goes a long way toward avoiding bad experiences. Not a guarantee, but good insurance nonetheless.

Best,

John