Only Admins can see this message.
Data Transition still in progress. Some functionality may be limited until the process is complete.
Processing Attachment, Gallery - 185.57829%

1969 Ludwig "Transition Badge"? HELP

Posts: 937 Threads: 82

Hi All,

I know its been awhile since I checked in here. Just had a new grand-daughter born :) Life gets really busy.

I thought I would post a few photos of a very interesting Ludwig 22" kick that I came across that also includes the 16 and 13 rack toms which have Keystone badges. The bass, I believe is a rare Ludwig anomaly. It has a late 60's factory configuration which includes a rail consolette and a side cymbal mount bracket, yet it has a very early issue B&O badge! These are factory mounted and there is no evidence of drilling or filling.

My thoughts on this are the following:

Knowing that Ludwig often mixed parts randomly as a measure of frugality, at the time, likely run out of keystone badges in late 1969 and decided to fix the new issue B&O pointy badge on this 1969 configured drum! So, it is somewhat like a "transition" badge. The matching 16 floor tom and 13 rack tom are late issue 1969 Keystone serials that were produced at the same time and combined as a kit in factory. Probably a few of these kits were produced before the new bass drum hardware with the centre rack tom post began appearing in 1970.

There you have it a 1969 Ludwig transition kit.

Let me know your thoughts on this. I know there are some awesome Ludwig experts here that can shed more light on this anomaly.

Thanks to all for your input!

-kellyj

3 attachments
ludwig.jpg
21.9 kB
Ludwig 2.jpg
26.3 kB
Ludwig 3.jpg
16.7 kB
"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing..."
Posted on 9 years ago
#1
Posts: 586 Threads: 22

I would suggest that rather than calling this a transition badge (a term that usually applies to a particular style of badge used in the later 1950s), you refer to this as a mixed badge set.

I am curious about the other two serial numbers on the Keystone badged drums. Are any of the drums date stamped?

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 9 years ago
#2
Posts: 937 Threads: 82

From KCDrumDad

I would suggest that rather than calling this a transition badge (a term that usually applies to a particular style of badge used in the later 1950s), you refer to this as a mixed badge set. I am curious about the other two serial numbers on the Keystone badged drums. Are any of the drums date stamped?

KC, right you are! The transition badge issued in 1958 was a unique single issue badge. I guess, the "transition" is in the configuration of hardware and complete badge re-design from 1969-70. Included are pics of the other drums.

The Keystone serials are from 1969 and you can see the pinch in the the badge that was introduced to keep it fastened tight to the shell. The other "tell" is the clear lacquer interior on all three drums. There are no date stamps.

It would have been interesting to see this mixed badge kit in a drum shop of the day...

-kellyj

2 attachments
ludwig 4.jpg
23.6 kB
Ludwig 5.jpg
22.3 kB
"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing..."
Posted on 9 years ago
#3
Posts: 625 Threads: 79

As far as i've heard, you could get the rail mount up through the 70s. I've even seen a few vistalite kits with them and they were introduced in 72 I think.

jason

Posted on 9 years ago
#4
Guest

Congratulations on a new grand-daughter. And nice looking kit.

The Keystone serials are from 1969

KC (Rick) is asking for the exact serial numbers because he is the author of the new serial number guide and keeper of the associated data. If you didn't use his published guide to determine your keystone serial numbers are 1969 (with suitable plus or minus factor) then you haven't had the benefit of the latest info. If you know the year from date stamps even better, and your data is even more valuable for ongoing research. All the online guides and Rob Cook's original one in The Ludwig Drum Book have been superseded by Rick's nice collation and analysis of new data. Rob Cook sells it (on Rebeats), and currently on eBay (see item number 261434136737). More info:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=42687

I can't make out the serial number on your 22" kick for sure. Maybe it's just my screen quality and reading glasses. Does it begin: 703947 or 763947 or something else? I'm picking 703947 which does make it early for a blue/olive serial number. But 9s 6s and 0s can be hard for me to pick in a small res photo. The lowest Blue/Olive serial number in Rick's pamphlet (at time of publication) was 749200 which is why yours is good to know. It might be the new lowest Blue/Olive serial number on record.

As a fellow owner of a 1969/70 kit I don't see anything unusual in yours. The obvious anomaly with mine is that the 12" tom was drilled for the keystone badge but fitted with a Blue/Olive badge which is thus placed a bit low. The other anomaly is white painted interiors, but that might be ex factory. Alas mine also have no date stamps. My serials are 760998 (12"), 763745 (14" ), 766804 (18").

[img]http://black.net.nz/drums/jazetfr.JPG[/img]

Posted on 9 years ago
#5
Posts: 2010 Threads: 19

From Eminent Destiny

As far as i've heard, you could get the rail mount up through the 70s. I've even seen a few vistalite kits with them and they were introduced in 72 I think. jason

The rail mount was still listed in the 1980 catalog but disappeared after that.

Posted on 9 years ago
#6
Posts: 937 Threads: 82

Zenstat, I was not aware of KC (Rick's) scholarly research on Ludwig dating. I really appreciate the heads up on that. Nice kit you have there BTW especially the 12" with the hole drilled for a Keystone but having a B&O instead. Ludwig just kept on building drums as fast and strange as they could.

KO, I think the rail mount was only custom after 1969? Is that correct?

Rick, here are the complete serials for each drum in my kit:

22"- B&O- 763047 (I wish it was 703047)!!

16"- Keystone- 682065

13"- Keystone- 677308

Keep up the good work ! :)

"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing..."
Posted on 9 years ago
#7
Posts: 2010 Threads: 19

From kellyj

KO, I think the rail mount was only custom after 1969? Is that correct?

The rail was shown on catalog sets throughout the 70's. It was still in the catalog very early in the 80's but I don't recall if any of the set configurations used it. Pretty sure the rail finally disappeared when the modular hardware was introduced right after the 80 catalog came out.

Posted on 9 years ago
#8
Posts: 586 Threads: 22

From kellyj

Rick, here are the complete serials for each drum in my kit:22"- B&O- 763047 (I wish it was 703047)!!16"- Keystone- 68206513"- Keystone- 682065Keep up the good work ! :)

Can you double check the tom and floor tom numbers? It would be unusual if they were both the same.

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 9 years ago
#9
Posts: 937 Threads: 82

Sorry about that. I corrected the error.

See above.

"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing..."
Posted on 9 years ago
#10
  • Share
  • Report
Action Another action
Something else here