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Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
I have seen several Ludwig drums from the 1971-72 time frame, both from the main line and from the Standards, that have paper labels. Some of these paper labels have date stamps while other have some sort of date code in the blank for date.
Does anyone have any insight into deciphering the date codes? Many have "71" or "72" imbedded within them, so it is tempting to pull out those digits and call it the year. However, what are we left with when we do that? Is it a month or date or something else? I have recorded the following date codes, but am not comfortable interpreting them and would appreciate some words of wisdom from a Ludwig fan. 4272 11717 21720 31720 32372 56717 57717 58717 59717 60717 61717 81720 |
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
A week has gone by with no comments. No one knows anything about these date codes?
The earliest date stamp I have seen thus far on a label is JUN 2 1970 and the latest is JUL 21 1972. I do not yet know if the use of date codes followed or was intermingled with the date stamps. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Last edited by KCDrumDad; 06-19-2012 at 09:09 AM. |
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
Rick, how do the serial numbers line up with the dates? Could you give us the corresponding serials for both the date codes and the date stamps?
Thanks, Bill
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
Just found a record of a kit I sold a while back.
22-13-16, WMP, one owner set, said he purchased in 1971. 14x22 had ink date stamp of AUG 14 1970. 9x13 had paper label with 58717 date, 944 model. 16x16 had paper label with 59717 date, 950 model. All serial numbers were 89xxx.
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
Main Line (Blue/Olive Pointy Corner Badges):
Date Stamps: 05/03/71 858320 05/06/71 854286 05/13/71 857811 05/18/71 854922 05/20/71 855058 05/21/71 875365 07/15/71 895467 08/18/71 874131 09/30/71 898656 10/21/71 901044 12/09/71 Blank Badge 07/21/72 913278 Date Codes: 5671X Blank Badge 59717 Blank Badge 4272 826477 4272 828835 31720 852935 21720 878991 81720 879840 56717 895533 57717 896518 59717 898000 60717 899121 59717 906326 11717 907466 21720 908XXX 21720 909XXX 21720 912XXX 61717 917834 61717 917839 61717 917914 61717 917998 60717 918172 60717 920297 60717 920415 32372 930726 4272 930862 4272 931701 Standard Line: Date Stamps: 06/02/70 37460 02/10/71 41125 05/04/71 47188 04/20/71 48489 08/23/71 49864 08/24/71 49937 Date Codes: 57717 51403 57717 51479 56717 51708 56717 52370 56717 52435 56717 52502 56717 52959 56717 52969 4272 53461 56717 53684 21720 63908 |
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
Here are the B/O Badge drums in Serial Number Order
4272 826477 4272 828835 31720 852935 05/06/71 854286 05/18/71 854922 05/20/71 855058 05/13/71 857811 05/03/71 858320 08/18/71 874131 05/21/71 875365 21720 878991 81720 879840 07/15/71 895467 56717 895533 57717 896518 59717 898000 09/30/71 898656 60717 899121 10/21/71 901044 59717 906326 11717 907466 21720 908XXX 21720 909XXX 21720 912XXX 07/21/72 913278 61717 917834 61717 917839 61717 917914 61717 917998 60717 918172 60717 920297 60717 920415 32372 930726 4272 930862 4272 931701 It seems to be generally agreed that Ludwig badges with serial numbers were not issued in strict numerical order, although this comment has been made when the topic was Keystone era badges. I do not know that anyone with first hand knowledge of Ludwig's practices has specifically stated that the same approach was used with B/O bdages. Without any additional information, I am not in a position to say that anything was done differently after the switch to B/O badges in 1969. I can only state that simply putting drums in serial number order does not necessarily reflect their manufacturing order. I am not able to detect any particular pattern in the above. Were date stamps and date codes used at the same time or did date codes replace date stamps at some point? Perhaps the answer will come from additional reports of date stamps and date codes on labels from B/O badge drums. Rick PS: Bill, are the SNs for the WMP set 89xxxx (an additional digit) or something else? |
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
Great stuff here as I have wanted to know details of this stuff. Do you know when the last ink date stamps were? I have a mod orange clubdate stamped in the 12" tom that reads Jan 5 1971. I also have a silver sparkle jazzfest with the paper tag that reads 4272. I am very interested to see what you eventually find out.
-Kurt
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
Quote:
The latest one that I have recorded (I have over 750 drums in my database which have both serial numbers and date stamps) is MAR 12 1971. I actually owned this drum and can confirm that it was a date stamp on the shell rather than on a label. The first date stamp I have recorded on a label used on a B/O badge drum is MAY 3 1971. Some of the Standards had earlier dates, as indicated already. From what I have so far, there are no date stamps on labels before MAY 3 1971 and no date stamps on shells after MAR 12 1971. I expect that some will be found simply based upon the large numbers of drums produced. Is there a clean transition from dates stamped on shells to dates stamped on labels? I cannot tell at this point. The good thing is that the shell dating questions should not have anything to do with serial numbers since these are apparently independent operations, so we can remove that variable from the analysis. With more data we should be able to learn more. If people have later date stamps or earlier labels, let me know. Rick |
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
My '71 Black Panther big beat kit is ink stamped Jan. 25, 1971 and are all in the 89xxxx serial range.
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Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
For anyone who has some insight or interest in this issue, I have provided an updated list below.
Main Line (Blue/Olive Pointy Corner Badges): Date Stamps: 04/25/71 829747 05/03/71 854521 05/03/71 858320 05/06/71 854286 05/13/71 857811 05/16/71 899014 05/18/71 854922 05/20/71 855058 05/20/71 865XXX 05/21/71 875365 05/28/71 8899XX 06/21/71 893516 07/15/71 895467 08/18/71 874131 08/18/71 874217 08/30/71 874697 09/30/71 898656 10/21/71 902738 11/03/71 901044 ? 918172 - Label pictured, could not see date 11/08/71 923013 ? 938639 - Label visible, but no date could be determined 12/09/71 Blank 12/14/XX 865XXX - Part of date obscured by mount 07/21/72 913278 Remove from list - Seller listed date, but appears to be seller's interpretation of date code 21720, not actual date stamp. Date Codes: 4272 # 826477 (The Date Code has a # a few spaces to the right of the 4272. It sometimes is at the edge of the label) 4272 # 828431 4272 828835 4272 # 929402 4272 930862 4272 # 931701 11717 907466 11717 907333 12717 868906 12717 869603 12717 869605 12717 869699 14727 913602 14727 927474 14717 932200 14727 938355 21720 878991 21720 908000 21720 909000 21720 912000 21720 913278 - Formerly listed as 7/21/72 (see above) 31720 852935 32372 930726 56717 895533 56717 Blank 56717 Blank 56717 Blank 56717 Blank 57717 846643 57717 896455 57717 841352 57717 897227 57717 841807 57717 845145 57717 893327 57717 896518 58717 844317 58717 844439 58717 874574 58717 89XXXX 58717 Blank 59717 Blank 59717 89XXXX 59717 8980XX 59717 906326 60717 899121 60717 899489 60717 9XXXXX 60717 900260 60717 918172 60717 920297 60717 920415 60717 920500 61717 917834 61717 917839 61717 917914 61717 917998 81720 879840 5671X Blank 59713* 900309 - Last digit of date Code difficult for seller to read xx717 917894 - First two digits of Date Code not readable Standard Line: Date Stamps: 06/02/70 37460 - Remove - no label, just stamp on shell 02/10/71 41125 05/04/71 47188 04/20/71 48489 07/20/71 52249 06/11/71 52651 08/23/71 49864 08/24/71 49937 Date Codes: 57717 51403 57717 51479 56717 51708 56717 52370 56717 52435 56717 52502 56717 52959 56717 52969 4272 53461 56717 53684 11717 58669 11717 59330 11717 59360 11717 59428 21720 63908 14717 66405 XX717 66481 Rick Last edited by KCDrumDad; 11-21-2012 at 09:01 AM. Reason: corrected an entry and added note |
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