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Old 12-27-2018, 03:00 PM
zberkery zberkery is offline
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Question New here with an Old K Cie - help with stamp ID, pls?

Hello,

Thanks for reading this. Does anyone know which stamp I have? I came across this cymbal at a music-go-round and recognized the Old K stamp. While I'm somewhat familiar with some of the stamps, I'm having a hard time placing this.

It has earmarks of stamp 3 with the tiny star and moon but one thing I noticed is that the ampersand "&" is slightly smaller than the other letters. In all the examples I've seen, I haven't found one like this.

The cymbal is 12.25", weighing 815g. Overall very good condition. Sits flat. Only one 1/8" superfine long hair crack coming from the hole. Sounds nice. Looks like a bottom hi hat. Any thoughts on the Stamp?

TIA!


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Old 12-27-2018, 03:44 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: New here with an Old K Cie - help with stamp ID, pls?

Here is another one like yours. This one is 13" and 1057g. The stamp has the smaller ampersand.



Here is a video of it.

This one did not sell on eBay in Feb 2018 with an asking price of $225.

There are a few variants of these older K Constantinople trademarks which so far as I know have not yet been illustrated with type specimens and catalogued. Bill Hartrick (Drumaholic) may have it all worked out, since he did the original work on these old K Zildjian trademarks. See the extensive show and tell here: http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=7235

The other variations I've spotted include how crowded the K Zildjian & Cie text is, whether the Cie has one or two lines under it, and whether the IN of MADE IN TURKEY is the same height as the rest of the letters. MADE IN TURKEY vs MADE IN TURKEY, how worn the TRADE MARK lettering is. Bill mentioned the worn TRADE MARK in another thread but I'll have to retrieve the link for that one from my records. *edit* here is the link: http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=62069

I haven't been looking in great detail at these trademarks as my interest is in price modelling. I just needed to learn enough about these to classify them for my own research purposes.
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Old 12-27-2018, 04:25 PM
zberkery zberkery is offline
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Default Re: New here with an Old K Cie - help with stamp ID, pls?

Thank you! That type spacing and ampersand looks identical to mine - excellent example. Sounds very similar as well.

I was using both your and Bill's sites in looking up info, prior to this post. Thanks for the work you put into that as well. I like stats, so enjoyed your breakdown on sales #s. Learning the history and manufacturing quirks about these cymbals is really cool. Now I need to check the stamps on my 60-70s Zildjians for fun.

So would you say this is a Stamp 3? I picked it up for $39 and hopefully I'll find a mate for it at a bargain too.
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Old 12-27-2018, 04:47 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: New here with an Old K Cie - help with stamp ID, pls?

Bill Hartrick has a site? Perhaps you mean RobScott which used Bill's work without credit? RobScott hasn't been maintained since late 2012 and needs lots of work to be up to date with current research.

I wouldn't say that is a Stamp 3 sensu stricto. On stylistic grounds it sits comfortably enough among Stamp 3 and Stamp 4 examples, but it is different enough to be recognizable. In taxonomy people tend to talk about "lumpers" and "splitters", depending on the researcher's attitude to creating new taxonomic units based on every little difference which can be identified. I am a "lumper" but with additional mention of the little differences we can see as a way of underscoring the variation which is actually out there. Later in the Turkish K Zildjian sequence this "lumper" vs "splitter" distinction plays out in people who say "it's a type III but I can't be bothered with a or b or c at the end. What does it really tell me about the cymbal?" versus those who want to go all the way to the lowest classification level.

So I'd just say it is an old K Zildjian & Cie Constantinople which has not yet been formally named and cataloged. I suspect there are as many of those uncatalogued ones as there are of the A Zildjian pre trans stamps

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=62393

and in both cases they are executed in separate parts so we need to shift the analysis from "whole trademarks" to the independent components so we can spot combinations of different parts.

And $39 seems a good price. I have another year of price tracking data to analyze now that the year is nearly finished. No rest for the wicked.
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Old 12-27-2018, 05:03 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: New here with an Old K Cie - help with stamp ID, pls?

And while we are talking about these, one of my efforts has been to show the continuity of the Arabic form across the early trademarks. This is more of me showing my colors as a "lumper".



Deciding if yours is more similar to a Stamp 3 or a Stamp 4 means you need to have a basis for deciding the importance of the Arabic section vs other portions of the trademark (English text, moon and star). If the sole diagnostic for stamp 3 vs stamp 4 were the Arabic section you might reach a different conclusion from the conclusion you would reach if you also examine those other sections.
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Old 12-27-2018, 07:02 PM
zberkery zberkery is offline
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Default Re: New here with an Old K Cie - help with stamp ID, pls?

You're right and I was mistaken with assuming it was Bill Hartrick's site. Thanks again for the additional information. You've given me a nice reference point and insight into lumping v splitting. You explained it well.
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Old 12-29-2018, 07:57 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: New here with an Old K Cie - help with stamp ID, pls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zberkery View Post
You're right and I was mistaken with assuming it was Bill Hartrick's site. Thanks again for the additional information. You've given me a nice reference point and insight into lumping v splitting. You explained it well.
Your letters are all squished together like stamp 3 too. I think it`s that one.
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