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  #11  
Old 07-22-2021, 03:11 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: gentle bell-bow transition vs. abrupt transition

Oh well, that's O.K. Just for reference here's the pictures:





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  #12  
Old 07-22-2021, 03:26 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: gentle bell-bow transition vs. abrupt transition

My first interest in this subject originated with Ringo's left side 20" which resembles the one previusly pictured
by Joe:

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  #13  
Old 07-23-2021, 11:15 AM
jda jda is offline
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Default Re: gentle bell-bow transition vs. abrupt transition

here's something yesterday on the subject, from an ex-employee's post at DFO:
````````````````
"When I worked R&D at Z, Craigie did allow Paul and Leon C., on a special request, to pick through this small vault off the side of the Drummers Lounge. I was in there with them when they were picking through 14s to make a special set of hats for a top endorser. There’s many, many thousands of cymbals in this vault, and the reason they ended up that way was that most weren’t A-stock…. So, over time they just got pushed to the back of the row when cymbal orders were picked. (This is in no way to be construed that of the 200 examples Z picked recently are flawed soundwise or cosmetically… there was plenty of good stock in the vault, and that these recently release examples were undoubtedly vetted).

What is fascinating about these examples is that some were old enough to have hay (which was used as packing material way back when…) oxidized impressions outlined on them. They were pre .500 through hole, which I believe was incorporated 1962-63. Cymbals weren’t stamped until they were picked for orders and the Testers had the stamp rollers on the the Test room (so this does blow up a lot of “precious” timelines folks have out there about stamps... because of the nature of how the inventory was stored and revolved). The cup, hammering and especially lathing are best indicator on date/era of manufacture.

But the most fascinating thing about these cymbals was they are proof that metallurgically speaking, the bronze “sweetened” and opened up over time. You can hear that distinctly in these time-capsuled, unplayed examples. Some that might have been so-so or “bad” when new, but all had now a distinct prettiness that came with the long aging."
`````````````

nothin new there right?.
````````````
https://www.drumforum.org/threads/ar...3#post-2146437
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  #14  
Old 07-23-2021, 12:12 PM
shackman shackman is offline
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Default Re: gentle bell-bow transition vs. abrupt transition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumaholic View Post
Ooof...look at the transition. Talk about abrupt. Forget about any semblance of class and/or style, we must accommodate amplified music!


I can just hear ol' Armand yelling in the background "We must have ping! Ping $#&%!...ping!"
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  #15  
Old 07-23-2021, 05:31 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: gentle bell-bow transition vs. abrupt transition

Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
here's something yesterday on the subject, from an ex-employee's post at DFO:
````````````````
*"When I worked R&D at Z, Craigie did allow Paul and Leon C., on a special request, to pick through this small vault off the side of the Drummers Lounge. I was in there with them when they were picking through 14s to make a special set of hats for a top endorser. There’s many, many thousands of cymbals in this vault, and the reason they ended up that way was that most weren’t A-stock…. So, over time they just got pushed to the back of the row when cymbal orders were picked. (This is in no way to be construed that of the 200 examples Z picked recently are flawed soundwise or cosmetically… there was plenty of good stock in the vault, and that these recently release examples were undoubtedly vetted).

What is fascinating about these examples is that some were old enough to have hay (which was used as packing material way back when…) oxidized impressions outlined on them. They were pre .500 through hole, which I believe was incorporated 1962-63. Cymbals weren’t stamped until they were picked for orders and the Testers had the stamp rollers on the the Test room (so this does blow up a lot of “precious” timelines folks have out there about stamps... because of the nature of how the inventory was stored and revolved). The cup, hammering and especially lathing are best indicator on date/era of manufacture.

But the most fascinating thing about these cymbals was they are proof that metallurgically speaking, the bronze “sweetened” and opened up over time. You can hear that distinctly in these time-capsuled, unplayed examples. Some that might have been so-so or “bad” when new, but all had now a distinct prettiness that came with the long aging."
`````````````

*nothin new there right?.
````````````
https://www.drumforum.org/threads/ar...3#post-2146437
I have a few comments problems with this statement:

Firstly, how does he know that the bronze "sweetened" over time? His statement is hardly a conclusion that can be based on a controlled scientific analysis, which is what should be necessary here. And this is especially true considering that there were cymbals in the vault from all eras (unstamped) and even going as far back as the era of "hay packing". Although the overall process for making cymbals remains the same, some details of that process have evolved over time. I'll use one example among many. Just consider how the sound of these cymbals are affected by how they are hammered. The older era cymbals used to be mostly hammered on the "side B" with slight irregularities in the spacing of the hammer blows (although perfectly circular) and were of the broader impact style. They appear shallower and wider, and in some cases they were also hammered (but usually to a lesser extent) on the "A" side as well. This broader impact hammering makes for a looser playing and feeling*cymbal**that "breathes" better too, so how do we know that it wasn't his alone that made them "sweeter" sounding as well? He*only*offers his opinion without convincingly nailing down the real reason for them being so. Today's cymbals are pressed into shape with a press and hammered only on the "A" side with a smaller impact area are more*deeply impressed. This concentration of force into a more*narrow and focused area*results in a stiffer playing cymbal. Even the thinnest ones from these later eras still sound and play stiff. Also on the older cymbals the distance variation between hammer marks made them less perfectly clean sounding but gave them what we refer to as "character". Today's cymbals, besides being unnecessarily stiff, have exactly perfect spacing between the hammering marks, and as a result are*notably lacking in that same character. My conclusion, which is based solely on the evolving over time of the hammering techniques tells me that these older cymbals were "sweeter" sounding from the day they were made and not by way of ageing.

More critique concerning the trademark issue to follow.
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  #16  
Old 07-23-2021, 11:55 PM
jda jda is offline
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Default Re: gentle bell-bow transition vs. abrupt transition

my latest tagline..

"with old Ks you don't miss or absolutely need a band.... they're your orchestra"

___________________2021 jda
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  #17  
Old 07-24-2021, 11:52 AM
shackman shackman is offline
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Default Re: gentle bell-bow transition vs. abrupt transition

Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
.... they're your orchestra"

___________________2021 jda
Isn't that the damn truth.
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