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  #11  
Old 04-09-2021, 02:29 AM
Dan Boucher Dan Boucher is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

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Originally Posted by Tommyp View Post
Dan!
You mean these? ... 😎✌😎

Tommyp

Beautiful. Great drum architecture!

The reason I inquired was, I was very taken Dave Weckl's performance on the late 70's Slingerland set. Not only were his dynamics and feel tremendous, but the drums sounded so good. Many factors involved in getting that sound, no doubt. But it made me wonder if the same person that set up those drums up could set up the set Buddy had used on Big Swing Face and achieve as good a sound.

I remember buying that album. None of my friends would have even considered buying something like that. They would have been focused on St Pepper's or some such album (and reasonably so), but the big band sound was so exhilarating that it is a wonder to me that it faded out. I saw Buddy once at the old Lenny's on the Pike in Peabody, MA before it burned down, once at the Holiday Inn where Lenny's took up temporary residence and once at Canobie Lake Park in southern NH (strange venue for him). Each time it was very exciting. Strange that dancing to that music had completely passed by. It was only observational by then - so restrained!
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2021, 11:29 AM
pgm554 pgm554 is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

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Originally Posted by Tommyp View Post
Dan!
The short answer is yes!... Buddy was still with Rogers when this was recorded. It was February/March of 67 I believe. That said, 1967 was a transitional year for BR drum wise. By the summer he had left Rogers and was with Trixon/VOX, and by Fall he was playing a full set of Fibes COF. By 1968, he was with Slingerland. Of note: Buddy used the Rogers L arm for his splash cymbal with every company he was with after Rogers .. until .. his third Ludwig endorsement in 1978.

Tommyp
Curious as to what point he was disguising his Fibes snare as a Rogers?
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  #13  
Old 04-10-2021, 05:28 PM
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Tommyp Tommyp is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

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Curious as to what point he was disguising his Fibes snare as a Rogers?
Believe it or not, that happened in mid 1965 into 1966! The snare drum in question was PRE Fibes in that the company wasn’t actually named Fibes yet. The company was called G&M Custom which stood for Grauso and Morena, and Bob went on to name it Fibes at some point later in 1965. Buddy’s drum was actually built by Bob Grauso for himself! Buddy heard and played the drum and had to have it. He bugged Bob until he relented, and they made some kind of deal, and the drum was Buddy’s! .. but .. Buddy was still with Rogers, so ... it was “disguised” to “look” like a Rogers COB Dynasonic ... from a distance anyway. He was discovered and asked to please stop playing it. Amazingly, and also one of the only times it ever happened, Buddy agreed! Buddy both respected and liked Ben Strauss and Joe Thompson .. two of the top guys at Rogers .. so he stopped playing the drum. In 1967 Buddy would leave Rogers and begin a whirlwind year of endorsements, ending with his Slingerland endorsement in 1968. The now infamous Fibes COF/SFT was seen a LOT while Buddy was with Slingerland ... only this time he would not agree to stop playing it which helped drive a wedge between him and Don Osborn Sr., then president of the Slingerland Drum Company. I have pics of that first G&M Custom snare drum and will post ‘em up once I get back to my PC. There’s the story however, and it’s a beauty!

Tommyp


... and here are a couple pics of the G&M Custom fiberglass snare drum made by Bob Grauso .. pre Fibes .. that he gave/sold to Buddy. You can see the Rogers Beavertail lugs, snare guards, and the Swivo-Matic throw, all in the attempt to disguise it to look like a Rogers Dynasonic. Ben Strauss was not fooled! Of note is that Bob kept the G&M Custom badge on the drum! ... but it was one panel behind the throw, so was most probably not noticed ... at least at first anyway. ENJOY!

Tommyp
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Last edited by Tommyp; 04-10-2021 at 07:19 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-11-2021, 12:44 AM
Dan Boucher Dan Boucher is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

That is amazing, even to the point of having installed the Dynasonic bottom hoop even though there was not bridge.

Tommyp,

What do you think most characterizes that drum and why Buddy would have selected it over the Dynasonic?
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  #15  
Old 04-11-2021, 09:03 AM
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Tommyp Tommyp is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

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Originally Posted by Dan Boucher View Post
That is amazing, even to the point of having installed the Dynasonic bottom hoop even though there was not bridge.

Tommyp,

What do you think most characterizes that drum and why Buddy would have selected it over the Dynasonic?
Dan!
There is no doubt in my mind, both from researching this stuff for decades, and owning/playing all the snare drums we are talking about here .. the Rogers COB Dynasonic, and the Fibes SFT690/COF, that the reason Buddy was so smitten with the Fibes was the fiberglass itself! Fiberglass shelled snare drums have an incredibly CRISP and extremely articulate "attack", but contrary to what so many always say about fiberglass ... no ... they don't have to be incredibly loud, but they can be! Fiberglass shells don't .. as a general rule .. possess a lot of "body", and especially so back when BR was playing them as he pretty much always used a REMO Ambassador coated on his snare drums. So, the Fibes snare drum with those heads, sounds like a carbine being fired, but with an incredible amount of articulation and projection. Projection is a key word as Buddy was always about being able to "project to the back of the room", those words in quotes as they are his. Today, what with so many head choices, a fiberglass snare drum can be "tamed" to a large degree with added "body" and a softer note ... yet the articulation remains in place. To sum it up: COB snare drums are bright for sure!, but nowhere near as bright as fiberglass. Couple that with a snare drum that will also allow EVERY STROKE to be heard, over the band and all the way to the back of the room, and well ... Buddy loved it! He wasn't alone by the way. Gene Krupa had a number of disguised Fibes/Grauso snare drums while endorsing Slingerland, and Louie Bellson also did while he was with Rogers. Louie Bellson's fiberglass snare drums were Blamire, not Fibes, but top quality. I have one of Louie's Blamire snare drums in WMP with all Rogers hardware. I have gigged it many times. Amazing drum, and in near mint condition. So ... there was certainly a rash of fiberglass interest by these three back in the day .. but .. it was Buddy that remained with it the longest, and it certainly suited his style, chops, and band! For whatever reason, once BR split Slingerland and went back with Ludwig in 1978 .. and for the thrid time no less! .. the Fibes SFT690/COF was never seen publicly again. Buddy DID favor the Ludwig metal shelled models though, and played those during the remainder of that endorsement. He was particularly fond of the Ludwig Hammered Bronze SuperSensitive, but that's another story!

Tommyp

Last edited by Tommyp; 04-11-2021 at 09:09 AM.
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  #16  
Old 04-12-2021, 12:23 AM
Dan Boucher Dan Boucher is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

Looking forward to "another story". But for now, how is the inside of the fiberglass snare drum finished? The outside, obviously, is very smooth and must have been the part against the mold, but what do we see inside?
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  #17  
Old 04-12-2021, 10:05 AM
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Tommyp Tommyp is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

[QUOTE=Dan Boucher;467373]Looking forward to "another story". But for now, how is the inside of the fiberglass snare drum finished? The outside, obviously, is very smooth and must have been the part against the mold, but what do we see inside?[/QUOT


... and an excellent question that is Dan! Because ... early on, and this would be pre Fibes as well as Bob Grauso owned Fibes, the bass drums and toms were all hand laid up fiberglass with hand formed "rings" and bearing edges. Outside of the brushed on resin, the shells were "unfinished". Reason I make mention of that is ... due to that hand built process, the interior of the shells can look pretty "rough". I'll attach some pics of my drums so you can see. However! ... the snare drums, and specifically ONLY the snare drums, were built using the spun fiberglass method .. thus .. they are pretty uniform and very finished looking on the interiors. Of note here is that Blamire always spun their shells and did no hand laid up fiberglass. Allow me to take a quick little tributary here ... once Bob Grauso SOLD Fibes to CFMartin in 1970, all that changed. While CFMartin didn't put a whole lot of interest or marketing into their NEW Fibes drum division .. and sadly too I might add .. they DID clean up the shell making process and standardized the interiors by painting them black, including snare drums. Anyway ... on the pre CFMartin snare drums, the shells were spun as mentioned .. and .. they were left in their natural state/color. Early snare drum interiors have a green tinge to them, and that would be the fiberglass plus the resin. A lot of Fibes guys feel that the early Bob Grauso/John Morena built drums are better in sound, but that is pretty subjective. I have drums from BOTH eras, and set up correctly with heads/tuning, they all sound pretty equal in my opinion. To sum it up: Early original Fibes interiors are "rough" looking and unfinished .. except snare drums .. and the later CFMartin owned Fibes with their black painted interiors, are much more uniform and aesthetically pleasing. Here are some pics, and these are all my own personal drums. So the pics in order are:

1967 Fibes interior 5X14
1967/68 Fibes bass drum interior 14X24
1970 Fibes/CFMartin interior 5X14
1972 Fibes/CFMartin floor tom interior 16X16
1966 Blamire interior, note it looks like the early Fibes as they are both spun .. and .. Rogers Dynasonic hardware as this was Louie Bellson's drum "disguised" as a Rogers WMP Dynasonic.

Hope you might have enjoyed!

Tommyp
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  #18  
Old 04-12-2021, 11:07 AM
pgm554 pgm554 is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

Actually one of things I've noticed is that some of their snares varied widely in sound.
Some more mellow


And some more crisp and piercing.


Some of the other manufacturers like Pearl did a great job making fiberglass shells.
Almost impeccable in fit finish and bearing edges.

As for marketing hype ,I remember Tama saying they used black fiberglass as it was a superior material over regular fiberglass.
I was going to have some shells made and Gene Okamoto gave me Blaemire's number and I quoted that blurb and he said fiberglass is fiberglass,no difference.

Last edited by pgm554; 04-12-2021 at 02:55 PM.
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  #19  
Old 04-12-2021, 11:36 AM
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Tommyp Tommyp is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm554 View Post
Actually one of things I've noticed is that some of their snares varied widely in sound.
Some more mellow

Fibes snare drum antiqued brass - YouTube

And some more crisp and piercing.

FIBES Snare Drum - YouTube

Some the other manufacturers like Pearl did a great job making fiberglass shells.
Almost impeccable in fit finish and bearing edges.

As for marketing hype ,I remember Tama saying they used black fiberglass as it was a superior material over regular fiberglass.
I was going to have some shells made and Gene Okamoto gave me Blaemire's number and I quoted that blurb and he said fiberglass is fiberglass,no difference.

... and Allen Blaemire was correct too! Fiberglass is indeed, fiberglass! Of course there can and will be some difference from shell to shell/drum to drum in the aural arena, as that's the nature of fiberglass in general. We also have to take into account one's head choice, and even one's technique and overall playing ability. These are all factors. That said though, the overall timbre of fiberglass across the spectrum is most certainly "high end" in nature. Just to be clear, I didn't mean all the drums sound identical. Of interest is that you have both snare drums modified with CAST hoops. That immediately dries up the note of the drum .. but again .. there are variances in timbre from shell to shell regardless. Fibes never offered their snare drums with a CAST hoop option. I only make mention of that for the guys that wouldn't know otherwise. Triple flanged COS were OEM. Of note, and this is keeping with the quality control issues that Fibes/CFMartin had, their hoops were not that good. Truth be told, there were MORE lousy hoops than good, and that can also influence the drums timbre. Still ... articulation, crispness, and projection are the hallmark of fiberglass!

Tommyp

Last edited by Tommyp; 04-12-2021 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Freaking typo's/keyboard! ��
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  #20  
Old 04-12-2021, 12:25 PM
pgm554 pgm554 is offline
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Default Re: Big Swing Face Album

If I remember the marketing of their drums ,one of the points they made was the consistency of fiberglass over wood shelled drums .(along with the tensile strength of steel).

The antique copper that I have is just different sounding than all of my others .
I've tried different heads and hoops.

Nope ,just a softer sounding snare than all of the others.
Unique,but just not the classic Fibes snare sound.
My Corders have sharper attack.

Speaking of a classic,have you seen this?
Why would you do this to an almost perfect drum?

Last edited by pgm554; 04-12-2021 at 12:31 PM.
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