This is a great thread. Maybe these questions will help people understand.

What is the actual definition of a "student" snare?

What is the cut-off between "student" and "professional" snare?

Is it the shell construction, number of lugs, type of hoops, depth of shell, shell finish, style of strainer and/or options (tone control/number of wire strands).

[LIST]

[*]Wood vs. metal (aluminum/COB/steel)

[*]6 lug vs. 8 lug vs. 10 lug

[*]"L" flange hoops vs. triple flange hoops

[*]5" shell vs. 6.5" shell vs. 7" shell vs. 8" shell

[*]Natural finish vs. lacquer finish vs. pearl finish vs. chrome finish

[/LIST]

During the 60's most manufactures offered drums at different price points. For example, in 1964, Rogers offered the following snares:

[INDENT]5" x 14" Dynasonic (wood or COB) for $150.00

10 lug (separate tension), Swivomatic strainer w/snare bridge, triple flange hoops, internal tone control

5" x 14" PowerTone (wood natural/lacquer) $89.00 (pearl) $99.00/(COB) $99.50

8 lug (separate tension), Swivomatic strainer, 20 strand Snappy snares, triple flange hoops, internal tone control

8" x 15" Century (natural/lacquer) $95.00/(pearl) $105.00

16 lug (separate tension), Swivomatic strainer, 20 strand Snappy snares, triple flange hoops, internal tone control

5" x 14" Tower (natural/lacquer) $69.50/(pearl) $79.50

8 lug (separate tension), Sta-tite strainer, 16 strand Snappy snares, triple flange hoops, tone control (add $3.75)

5" x 14" Luxor (natural/lacquer) $59.50/(pearl) $69.50

6 lug (separate tension), Bantam strainer, 16 strand Snappy snares, triple flange hoops, tone control (add $3.75)

5" x 14" Student (natural/lacquer) $52.50/(pearl) $59.50

6 lug (separate tension), basic strainer, 16 strand Snappy snares, "L" flange hoops

5" x 14" Banner (natural/lacquer) $42.50/(pearl) $49.50

6 lug (single tension), basic strainer, 12 strand Snappy snares, "L" flange hoops

[/INDENT]

Top dog was the Dynasonic at $150, while the Banner was at the bottom at $42.50.

Since the Dynasonic was so unique, let's look at the differences between the wood pearl PowerTone at $99.00 and the pearl Luxor with additional tone control at $72.75. There's only a $26.25 difference.

Both had the same shells and same triple flange style hoops. Up until the lug holes were drilled (8 vs. 6), there wasn't a difference.

Differences between the two:

[INDENT]PowerTone had 2 additional lugs, 4 additional snare wires and the Rogers designed Swivomatic strainer.

Luxor had 2 less lugs, 4 less snare wires and a third party designed strainer.[/INDENT]

[INDENT]Swivomatic strainer - $13.50

Sta-tite strainer - $9.95 (couldn't find price for Bantam)

16 strand Snappy Snares - $3.30

20 strand Snappy Snares - $3.50

Small Beavertail Center lug - $1.35[/INDENT]

If you take the Luxor model, remove the strainer, add a Swivomatic, change out the wires to 20 strand Snappy snares and hypothetically add two more lugs, the cost comes out to $79.20. That's still a $19.80 difference between the PowerTone and the Luxor. Talk about a markup. :eek:

With these slight differences between 8 and 6 lugs, is a 6 lug snare really considered a "student" drum? You can say the tuning range comes into play, but the overall quality of the drum is still pretty much the same.

Sorry for the long post. ;)

-Tim

You present a really good and relevant perspective on the differences in the Rogers line of snares. Any of them would have performed under most circumstances without fail or loss of sound quality during the mid 60s. The exception being the Banner with its single tension tuning system and the Student with its hoop system. They would have had definite limitations and even those were still of a better build quality than many of the MIJ imports of the time. Another perspective, 1964 Rogers drums were expensive. My parents bought a house and three acres for $10,000 in 1964, the price of a 4 piece Rogers Swingtime set was around 5 percent of what that property cost them, and a Dyna-Sonic listed at approximately the same as two months house payments. Imagine of those numbers applied today for a decent pro quality set or snare.

Even among so-called Student snare drums, I think build quality is the determinate factor that separates the good from the bad. Some Student drums were professional quality instruments that were designed to last a long time, build brand loyalty, and ensure that if a player advanced, they would advance within the brand line.

I just used a mid-50's Slingerland student Radio King 7 x 14 shell to come up with the beauty you see below. I've owned a couple of 6-lug snares and I just can't dig 'em. Acros and these Slingy's are pretty cool "student" drums, though.

Aaron

[IMG]http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m530/ElMoonlightDrummer/C19C3309-9AD6-4AFA-B918-06B3BDA6A4F9-5102-0000029566414E1A_zpse35db1be.jpg[/IMG]

I recently did pit duty in a three-week rock musical. I took two snares with me -- a 2013 Pearl Sensitone Elite black-over-brass, and a Ludwig Standard aluminum as a backup. About midway through week 2 I switched to the Standard for the rest of the run because the Pearl kept detuning. The Standard stayed steady as a rock. Nothing "student" about that drum!

Some comments:

Thornbeck; I think what constitutes a vintage 'student drum' was essentially how it was labeled. I'll expand on that more in my response to Ploughman, below. Interesting information on the Rogers line.

Ploughman; Your comment about build quality is on the mark. Current 'student snares', and drums for that matter are pretty much trash. All the cookie cutter kits sold now are nothing when compared to the same 'type' of drums sold up through the 80's and maybe 90's... I wasn't paying much attention at that time. I bought a Sound Percussion kit advertised on C/L a couple years ago. Cleaned 'em up and flipped 'em, except for one of the snares it came with. Somebody had picked up a B/W (Asian, not USA) badged Ludwig snare and put it with the kit along with the S/P POP (piece of poop) snare. It's a 14 X 5.5, ten bowtie lug, COS snare with the sketchy throw off so popular on those types. I changed the throw off to a better generic (Gibraltar maybe?) one that fit the holes and wow, wow, wow. I was amazed. I would still consider that an entry level snare, but there is a real sleeper. I gave it to an old friend that wanted a metal snare with a wide range, he loves it. It's build quality was 'near' an Acro, not the same or as spiffy (IMHO), but nearly.

ElMoonlightDrummer; Sweet snare!

alparrott: What a great story! An old Ludwig Standard replaces a 'hot' modern snare. Just goes to show ya...

I play vintage Slingerlands so can only speak of them. I own two of the "Student" model snares. One is a mahogany/poplar/mahogany Chicago era bought off E Bay. It had been knocked around, recovered in what seemed thick enough to be countertop resulting in the heads having to be pried off. I completely refurbished the drum, cleaned up the edges and recovered that drum in red sparkle to match a bop kit I put together from orphan shells. The other is an early Niles Student with a maple interior, again off E Bay. I watched it for almost a week with no bidders, might the "Student" model have had people dismissing the drum being inferior? The more I looked at it over that week the more it appeared the drum was in fantastic condition. I ened up doing the buy it now for $165.00; when it arrived it was in pristine condition; the dark blue sparkle was fade and scratch free, miniscule pitting on two lugs, interior and edges factory fresh. Someone had cared for this drum.

The sound of both drums once I added new heads and wires was more than a surprise. Both got Fiberskyn heads with Evans hazy snaresides. The Chicago drum got Puresound wires and the Niles Canopus wires. I play trio jazz, mostly guitar so tunings on both run medium to low end of high. The Chicago has a full round sound with good overtones; it was mentioned they were "ringy" and I would agree, though to my ears not objectionable. I sometimes use about a fingernail size piece of moon gel to take off the highest end of the ring if the room is lively.

The Niles maple is more focussed than the Chicago and the Canopus wires focus the sound even more. Low tuning with loosened snares is fat and round with nice overtones. I've not used any Moongel on this drum as it doesn't have the high end ring of the Chicago. This drum seems a bit more articulate than the Chicago but again could be a function of the Canopus wires

Surprisingly both of these Students have become my favorite snare drums; I also own a solid maple '65 Artist and a '38, 6-1/2 Radio King. Solid shell snares are beautiful but a very different voice than the 3-ply Students, they project with authority, highly focussed and can take higher tunings with 8 lugs each. The Students are warm, rich and full of nuance for jazz. The shell build, edges and chrome quality on the Students are commensurate with the higher end Slingerland models. I can't say for certain but with two less lugs the shells of the Student models may breathe and resonant better. I'm thrilled to own the two, with a mahogany and a maple to choose from they are similar but different and whichever is on the stand with the kit is my favorite at that moment. Yes the Students were lower priced no frills models but in spite of that don't seem to give up much of anything soundwise to their higher end more expensive brethren. They've expanded my snare pallette and given me a better understanding of the nuances of Slingerland wood shell snares. Don't let the "Student" nomenclature lead you to believe they are inferior, if anything they are indeed "gifted" "Students"!

My very first snare drum (bought in 1986) was a early 60's Ludwig Pioneer in blue duco finish with a P-83. I acquired it with an old beat-up Japanese stencil kit from someone's basement for $225. Someone had dropped it on the strainer, cracking the shell, and had decided to move the strainer and butt one "space" around the shell, obviously neither knowing nor caring about snare beds. He didn't even drill the holes for the strainer straight and as a result it canted to one side. As a new drummer I had no clue about any of this for a while, but after a year or so of playing and learning I had my stepdad help me putty up the cracked part of the shell and reinstall the strainer and butt correctly. I then played that drum for the next twelve or thirteen years. It sounded better than just about any other snare I played, with a very nice crack.

Like a complete idiot, I sold it off along with two of my older drumsets when I was going through a divorce to pay some bills. The snare, by itself, was later seen in Music 6000 in Olympia selling for $400 by itself.

A great "student" snare that I wish I still had, and when I have some mad money floating around, I may pick one up off eBay.