Well tell him to sign up on this site and make a public statement to that subject but until then that quote by him is undocumented.

Where is your documented proof that factory documents and *only* factory documents can be accepted as proof of the existence of anything? :) You are making an arbitrary claim as far as I can tell.

This is planet Earth and photographs count. We have two on this thread alone. So, they may no longer exist, destroyed or otherwise disappeared, but they did exist, as proven by photographic evidence.

Sorry if this seems terse or tense. :)

Mitch

Let's be honest, Osahead2 doesn't own a maple finish RB kit so he'll deny their existence until he does... Coffee Break2

And sir you are absolutely correct, I don't own a factory original natural maple Gretsch RB kit... hell as far as I'm concerned nobody does and that my friend includes your 18" stripped bass drum that you keep trying to justify.

Now let the truth be told... before, I was educated about vintage Gretsch RB drums, i was foolish enough and brought a STRIPPED natural maple RB kit which at the time was told it was real well as it turned out the RB kit was a FAKE... and yes I use to believed just about every and any CRAZY story about drums as most still do today... but, I caution buyers to have all the documents and proof up front before you spend any of your hard earned money.

That seems to me like good advice nobody can dispute. :)

Mitch

Sorry Osahead just to confirm the kit was a stripped Gretsch RB, or actually a totally fake kit?

My kit in question was a nice little genuine mid-1960s Gretsch Progressive Jazz RB kit that had been STRIPPED and refinished in a beautiful natural maple finish.

Since then, I have been blessed with a wide assortment of some rare vintage 18/12/14 bop kits... i.e. Gretsch RB, Gretsch SSB, Cleveland Rogers, aristocrat Oaklawn Camco, L.A. Camco, early 3ply Slingerland and Keystone era Ludwig Jazzette kits just to name a few... that's only because, I educated myself to know what REAL looks like... and ask the right questions, etc.

I think this all boils down to two questions.

1. Did Gretsch EVER produce ANY natural maple finish drums at ANY point during the Round Badge era?

and

2. If so have any of those drums survived to the present day?

Question one is pretty well proven as a "yes" by the photographic evidence we have on hand. Unless you want to believe that Gretsch chose to produce a fake advertisement and Charlie posed with some sort of a mock up of maple drums then it's pretty conclusive that Gretsch produced at least one set of natural maple drums, and even thought up a catchy name for that finish. Even just one set of these out of thousands does qualify, so the answer is "yes".

Question two we can honestly never answer. The fact that we don't see any signifies nothing as there are literally millions of other places where they might be. And, even if we could somehow do a hard target search EVERYWHERE, and none turned up that would only prove that they hadn't survived, not that they never existed. Question one still stands.

Really whatever anyone at Gretsch's current incarnation has to say about this, or whatever Charlie Watts chooses to play, or anything that we amateur drum detectives might chose to believe doesn't really effect the answer to question number one.

Nor does that mean that if one of these sets should surface we should immediately accept it at face value as the real deal and start throwing money towards it. Unfortunately, anytime there is a way for someone to some extra cash they will figure out a way to take advantage of that. To someone that knew what they were doing it wouldn't be that hard to fake one of these sets. it would be even easier (much easier) to produce fake "factory documentation". We may have reached a point where even if a true factory natural maple RB set did surface there would be almost no way to know with 100% absolute certainty that it was "real". Probably with microscopic analysis of some sort, beyond most of our means. Unless of course maybe you pulled it out of Charlie Persip's basement.

I'd actually be more inclined to believe that the $200 natural maple set in ratty shape that pops up at a garage sale in New Jersey is the real deal more so than a $12000 set at some auction house. If a set ever does surface that is probably how it would first appear.

None of this negates question one though which I think was the point of the original post. Gretsch DID make some of them (at least one set, I'd say two as I don't think Ted Reed stripped the wrap off a new drum set). Whether or not they still exist is another matter, but immaterial to the main point.

The ad is "factory documentation" of the best sort. Nobody could produce a fake ad and insert it into every copy of vintage magazines.

BTW: Lacquer drums sold for less money than wrapped drums and were generally considered to be the "lower line" version of any particular drum. Because of that drum companies pushed their endorsers to use, and therefore promote, wrapped drums which yielded more profit. I don't know about Gretsch but do know that Bud Slingerland was irritated when Shelly Manne chose to use a natural maple Leedy set. Mr. Slingerland complained that (Slinger)Leedy's #1 endorser should be promoting higher profit margin wrapped drums.

Also, Hard to believe that over the approx. ten years that Gretsch was putting round badges on 6 ply shells it occurred to no one (either employee or artist) looking at stacks of nice maple finish Jasper tubes scattered around the plant that some of the nicer ones might look cool with a glossy clear finish over them like fine furniture. They would also, no doubt, be aware of Manne's aforementioned natural set (he left Gretsch for Leedy). Just sayin'....

K.O., just because a famous drummer in 1965 was photographed in a ad with a natural maple RB Gretsch kit doesn't necessarily mean 100% that that natural maple kit pictured was not a stripped drum set. Again until one pops up... then I'll believe it.

And this might be a little "off topic" but, I will say this a "unwrapped" lacquer kit might have originally sold for less (okay) but they sound 100% better over the "wrapped" one... why? Because wrapped drum shells have glue and plastic wrap on it restricting the sound choking the shells slightly however with unwrapped drum shells there is no thick glue or wrap which will definitely resonate freely especially since their is no choking on the shell... for example like a beautiful all wooden violin... plus as you know after 1970 we saw more and more wood finishes and painted Gretsch SSB kits. Gretsch must have finally figured out that wood finished kits sounded better or simply were cheaper to get out the door?

Please (readers & K.O.) don't take this the wrong way but my question is... only a few of us (a very small handful) here on this forum has ever played both types of real RB bop kits... a real genuine Gretsch RB bop kit in walnut finish and a real genuine Gretsch RB bop kit (wrapped)... so it wouldn't be fair to ask you if you know the difference between the two. I currently own both... and yes the wood finished RB kit sounds better.

If you just want your shells to resonate more, why are you playing vintage drums to begin with? And why are you playing RB Gretsch when Rogers drums from the same era have much sharper bearing edges and are ported properly, and will resonate much more?