The nasty variable in play here is the fact that (insert drum company) didn't publish a current cat each and every year. Even the ones they did publish were sometimes a year or more in the making and used old info to save time and money. The 67 doesn't show it but the 71 does. Is one to conclude that a particular config STARTED in 71, or was it actually 66 and was delayed due to time constraints of the deadline. It is well documented that the info contained in the cats follows a very imprecise timeline due to these variables. We note the appearence of an option in a particular cat, but it may have taken up to five years to get it in there due to the length of time it took to get it ready to publish AND the fact that there were sometimes several years between cats. This makes for some pretty extreme timeframes.

Not sure how it helps but 20" v. 22" is not the only distinction between Super Classic and Downbeat BDs- it's also 8 lugs vs. 10 and different spurs... I've seen 20" with the Super Classic hardware but maybe some may have belonged to a New Yorker or other?

Curious if any of the more successful sellers (mlvibes et al) have any thoughts, as they're closer to the market than many of us.

Good point, Mike. There certainly are some other essential identifying characteristics that go beyond the dimensions of the shells.

I had to rewrite my last post because it was too convoluted! I'll try to be more concise:

What's NOT in the printed material can be argued because, as mcjnic points out, there are gaps in the catalog printings.

Certainly, I should have realized that, when my 1970 Deluxe Classic drum set came out, there was no catalog to depict it -apparently, until 1971. So then...is my Deluxe Classic kit legit? Well, of course, I would say, "yes!", because I have the un-stamped B/O badges and the curved, square-stock disappearing spurs and the lack of a bass drum mounted cymbal bracket to prove it. But I do NOT have a catalog reference for a Deluxe Classic from that year. So, maybe they were late, late 1969 drums -or maybe they were very early 1971 drums.

And, again, my 1969 Jazzette is matched right down to the Supra....but it's from 1969 and there is no catalog to reference that year. So, was a red sparkle wrap part of the finish options that year? I would say, "Yes!" -because I have the matched set of drums in the proper dimensions and the proper, original hardware and drumheads to prove it.

I also have a 1967 red sparkle Jazzette. Is that legit? According to the dimensions "Yes". According to the finish options listed for it, "No".

There is kind of a gray area, in retrospect, I guess. But, generally, the catalogs are essential for the proper identification from a given era in the collecting game. I tend to go for matched drums, myself. Even if they are out of the "proper" dimensions, if the stamps and badges relate closely enough, then that's a good enough indication they have stayed together in an original configuration.

So, in some cases, I am willing to agree that the catalogs are incomplete, too. They do provide the general reference rules that the collecting game has to go by, though. When those gaps have to be filled-in, then it's nice when people can provide real-life examples.

why don t we throw color in to this too in those inbetween catalog years was there any renegade colors also i wonder

I think the catalogs are what collectors agree to live by;absent an actual invoice or sales reciept from a music store or the factory.Ludwig especially did a lot of one time and custom things back in the day.Non documented wraps and custom colors?Mitch Mitchels double bass(26") Black Panther kit.Played them on tv shows and at Woodstock 3 years before the catalog said that color existed,let alone 2 26"bass drums.A friend of mine in high school got a double bass Ludwig kit with 2-22" virgin bass drums,2-13"toms and 16"floor tom with a supra in 1969,and the interiors of the drums were white.The 13"toms were mounted to a floor stand.

So anyway,great kit,don't beat it too hard and before you buy cymbals(A Zildjian and Paiste 602's were most common for the time)replace that bottom floor tom rim with a period correct one.Just use the serial numbers to get the dates of manufacture. Good luck and remember to pass those drums down to your grand children.

Steve B

gorgeous set!

you have the tom sizes I want to add to my kit!

i was looking at my luddy catalog of 1967 and the super classic comes stock with a 14x 22 base and 16 floor ,the downbeat is just the smaller version with a 20 b drum and 14 floor now im sure you could order mix and match even off the show room floor, so everyone is right in a way but if you go just by the catalog then that's the way you would document unless you have a special order invoice to collaborate the purchase. I think its will be getting like the vintage cars market, years ago it did not matter what it came with as far as options on car it was worth only so much as a collectible but today the more actual paper work you have that's the only way the big buyers will believe you other wise its just here say ......provenance is the new word for top $$$$ soon it will be affecting the vintage musical instruments but im sure all here are aware of this any way ....thanx

Which brings up another point:

In 1967, a Downbeat configuration was slightly different than it was in 1965. In 1965, the catalog description of a Downbeat kit was a 20/12/14 and a Downbeat (14 x 4) snare drum. But the Downbeat snare drum, as such, was dropped and replaced with the ever-ubiquitous Supraphonic.

And other "little" things like hardware packages also caused names of configurations to change. The Super Classic and Deluxe Classic were identical except for the hardware package.

The Hollywood started out with TWIN 12" tom toms...but then later switched to a 12 and a 13....depending on the year.

That's why catalogs are important to verifying certain aspects of identification. For example: One time, I saw a 1964 Ludwig Jazzette being offered on ebay. The problem is that the Ludwig Jazzette didn't even exist under that moniker until 1966 when it was photographed for the 1967 catalog. So, there was no way it was a Jazzette. Turns out, it was a bunch of rogue shells that someone had refurbished and rewrapped. It was a nice set and would have sounded and performed great as a player's set, I'm sure....but it wasn't a collectible Jazzette and shouldn't have been expected to be valued as such.

speaking of the early downbeat sets or even the new yorker which i just pick up (storage wars again )it came with a cob no serial supra (mint)so this set was one ordered this way, wish i knew if it came with the floor tom or not as id like to have it, but its great the new york way,nice and clean so there again no offer of that option in early catalog but here it is again theory, so i play and show it with my 65 jazz fest.and the supra and it looks good and plays great but its not historically correct there u have it players do all sorts of stuff to there kits we always have and always will....

Wow, this thing is still going huh? :) I have just posted a want add for the addition I want to make in the "want to buy" forum section. http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=20357 If anyone could point me into the right direction for modifying my downbeat outfit into double floor toms, I'd love it. Thanks guys