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-   -   Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes? (https://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=30377)

KCDrumDad 06-08-2012 06:10 PM

Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
4 Attachment(s)
I have seen several Ludwig drums from the 1971-72 time frame, both from the main line and from the Standards, that have paper labels. Some of these paper labels have date stamps while other have some sort of date code in the blank for date.

Does anyone have any insight into deciphering the date codes? Many have "71" or "72" imbedded within them, so it is tempting to pull out those digits and call it the year. However, what are we left with when we do that? Is it a month or date or something else?

I have recorded the following date codes, but am not comfortable interpreting them and would appreciate some words of wisdom from a Ludwig fan.

4272
11717
21720
31720
32372
56717
57717
58717
59717
60717
61717
81720

KCDrumDad 06-16-2012 01:09 PM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
A week has gone by with no comments. No one knows anything about these date codes?

The earliest date stamp I have seen thus far on a label is JUN 2 1970 and the latest is JUL 21 1972. I do not yet know if the use of date codes followed or was intermingled with the date stamps.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

mlvibes 06-16-2012 02:09 PM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
Rick, how do the serial numbers line up with the dates? Could you give us the corresponding serials for both the date codes and the date stamps?

Thanks,
Bill

mlvibes 06-16-2012 02:32 PM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
Just found a record of a kit I sold a while back.

22-13-16, WMP, one owner set, said he purchased in 1971.

14x22 had ink date stamp of AUG 14 1970.
9x13 had paper label with 58717 date, 944 model.
16x16 had paper label with 59717 date, 950 model.

All serial numbers were 89xxx.

http://www.classicvintagedrums.com/i...70/use_06a.jpg
http://www.classicvintagedrums.com/i...70/use_06b.jpg
http://www.classicvintagedrums.com/i...70/use_06c.jpg

KCDrumDad 06-16-2012 06:45 PM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
Main Line (Blue/Olive Pointy Corner Badges):
Date Stamps:
05/03/71 858320
05/06/71 854286
05/13/71 857811
05/18/71 854922
05/20/71 855058
05/21/71 875365
07/15/71 895467
08/18/71 874131
09/30/71 898656
10/21/71 901044
12/09/71 Blank Badge
07/21/72 913278

Date Codes:
5671X Blank Badge
59717 Blank Badge
4272 826477
4272 828835
31720 852935
21720 878991
81720 879840
56717 895533
57717 896518
59717 898000
60717 899121
59717 906326
11717 907466
21720 908XXX
21720 909XXX
21720 912XXX
61717 917834
61717 917839
61717 917914
61717 917998
60717 918172
60717 920297
60717 920415
32372 930726
4272 930862
4272 931701


Standard Line:
Date Stamps:

06/02/70 37460
02/10/71 41125
05/04/71 47188
04/20/71 48489
08/23/71 49864
08/24/71 49937

Date Codes:
57717 51403
57717 51479
56717 51708
56717 52370
56717 52435
56717 52502
56717 52959
56717 52969
4272 53461
56717 53684
21720 63908

KCDrumDad 06-17-2012 01:28 PM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
Here are the B/O Badge drums in Serial Number Order

4272 826477
4272 828835
31720 852935
05/06/71 854286
05/18/71 854922
05/20/71 855058
05/13/71 857811
05/03/71 858320
08/18/71 874131
05/21/71 875365
21720 878991
81720 879840
07/15/71 895467
56717 895533
57717 896518
59717 898000
09/30/71 898656
60717 899121
10/21/71 901044
59717 906326
11717 907466
21720 908XXX
21720 909XXX
21720 912XXX
07/21/72 913278
61717 917834
61717 917839
61717 917914
61717 917998
60717 918172
60717 920297
60717 920415
32372 930726
4272 930862
4272 931701

It seems to be generally agreed that Ludwig badges with serial numbers were not issued in strict numerical order, although this comment has been made when the topic was Keystone era badges. I do not know that anyone with first hand knowledge of Ludwig's practices has specifically stated that the same approach was used with B/O bdages. Without any additional information, I am not in a position to say that anything was done differently after the switch to B/O badges in 1969. I can only state that simply putting drums in serial number order does not necessarily reflect their manufacturing order.

I am not able to detect any particular pattern in the above. Were date stamps and date codes used at the same time or did date codes replace date stamps at some point?

Perhaps the answer will come from additional reports of date stamps and date codes on labels from B/O badge drums.

Rick

PS: Bill, are the SNs for the WMP set 89xxxx (an additional digit) or something else?

wflkurt 06-18-2012 11:26 AM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
Great stuff here as I have wanted to know details of this stuff. Do you know when the last ink date stamps were? I have a mod orange clubdate stamped in the 12" tom that reads Jan 5 1971. I also have a silver sparkle jazzfest with the paper tag that reads 4272. I am very interested to see what you eventually find out.
-Kurt

KCDrumDad 06-18-2012 01:12 PM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wflkurt (Post 193848)
Great stuff here as I have wanted to know details of this stuff. Do you know when the last ink date stamps were? I have a mod orange clubdate stamped in the 12" tom that reads Jan 5 1971. I also have a silver sparkle jazzfest with the paper tag that reads 4272. I am very interested to see what you eventually find out.
-Kurt

By that, do you mean the last date stamps on shells rather than labels?

The latest one that I have recorded (I have over 750 drums in my database which have both serial numbers and date stamps) is MAR 12 1971. I actually owned this drum and can confirm that it was a date stamp on the shell rather than on a label. The first date stamp I have recorded on a label used on a B/O badge drum is MAY 3 1971. Some of the Standards had earlier dates, as indicated already.

From what I have so far, there are no date stamps on labels before MAY 3 1971 and no date stamps on shells after MAR 12 1971. I expect that some will be found simply based upon the large numbers of drums produced. Is there a clean transition from dates stamped on shells to dates stamped on labels? I cannot tell at this point. The good thing is that the shell dating questions should not have anything to do with serial numbers since these are apparently independent operations, so we can remove that variable from the analysis. With more data we should be able to learn more. If people have later date stamps or earlier labels, let me know.

Rick

new_user 06-18-2012 02:33 PM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
My '71 Black Panther big beat kit is ink stamped Jan. 25, 1971 and are all in the 89xxxx serial range.

KCDrumDad 11-20-2012 06:24 PM

Re: Ludwig Paper Labels from 1971/72 Time Frame - Date Codes?
 
For anyone who has some insight or interest in this issue, I have provided an updated list below.

Main Line (Blue/Olive Pointy Corner Badges):
Date Stamps:
04/25/71 829747
05/03/71 854521
05/03/71 858320
05/06/71 854286
05/13/71 857811
05/16/71 899014
05/18/71 854922
05/20/71 855058
05/20/71 865XXX
05/21/71 875365
05/28/71 8899XX
06/21/71 893516
07/15/71 895467
08/18/71 874131
08/18/71 874217
08/30/71 874697
09/30/71 898656
10/21/71 902738
11/03/71 901044
? 918172 - Label pictured, could not see date
11/08/71 923013
? 938639 - Label visible, but no date could be determined
12/09/71 Blank
12/14/XX 865XXX - Part of date obscured by mount
07/21/72 913278 Remove from list - Seller listed date, but appears to be seller's interpretation of date code 21720, not actual date stamp.


Date Codes:
4272 # 826477 (The Date Code has a # a few spaces to the right of the 4272. It sometimes is at the edge of the label)
4272 # 828431
4272 828835
4272 # 929402
4272 930862
4272 # 931701
11717 907466
11717 907333
12717 868906
12717 869603
12717 869605
12717 869699
14727 913602
14727 927474
14717 932200
14727 938355
21720 878991
21720 908000
21720 909000
21720 912000
21720 913278 - Formerly listed as 7/21/72 (see above)
31720 852935
32372 930726
56717 895533
56717 Blank
56717 Blank
56717 Blank
56717 Blank
57717 846643
57717 896455
57717 841352
57717 897227
57717 841807
57717 845145
57717 893327
57717 896518
58717 844317
58717 844439
58717 874574
58717 89XXXX
58717 Blank
59717 Blank
59717 89XXXX
59717 8980XX
59717 906326
60717 899121
60717 899489
60717 9XXXXX
60717 900260
60717 918172
60717 920297
60717 920415
60717 920500
61717 917834
61717 917839
61717 917914
61717 917998
81720 879840
5671X Blank
59713* 900309 - Last digit of date Code difficult for seller to read
xx717 917894 - First two digits of Date Code not readable



Standard Line:

Date Stamps:

06/02/70 37460 - Remove - no label, just stamp on shell
02/10/71 41125
05/04/71 47188
04/20/71 48489
07/20/71 52249
06/11/71 52651
08/23/71 49864
08/24/71 49937

Date Codes:
57717 51403
57717 51479
56717 51708
56717 52370
56717 52435
56717 52502
56717 52959
56717 52969
4272 53461
56717 53684
11717 58669
11717 59330
11717 59360
11717 59428
21720 63908
14717 66405
XX717 66481

Rick


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