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-   -   WFL Barrett Deems Snare (http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=67220)

johnnyringo 09-15-2021 12:03 PM

WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
5 Attachment(s)
Well, I bought it! Nice drum.

idrum4fun 09-15-2021 01:38 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Good for you! Enjoy!

-Mark

Dudley 09-15-2021 02:16 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Congrats. now enjoy it in the manner of your preference!

grantro 09-15-2021 04:22 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Beautiful looking snare, JR!! Enjoy it!!

Cheers

O-Lugs 09-15-2021 05:53 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Wow! April Fool's Day! You gotta hang onto that drum for the date, alone!

Northamusi 09-15-2021 09:29 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
I’m not being a smart-@ss here…what makes this model different from a Jazz Fest?
Thanks!

Dan Boucher 09-15-2021 11:24 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
And where does this Barrett Deems model fall in the WFL timeline?

O-Lugs 09-16-2021 02:20 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Northamusi (Post 469495)
I’m not being a smart-@ss here…what makes this model different from a Jazz Fest?
Thanks!

Nothing, really. Ludwig sometimes named a drum model after whichever famous drummer of the time was endorsing Ludwig. When Deems jumped the Ludwig ship, Ludwig just renamed it.

thin shell 09-16-2021 05:56 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Lugs (Post 469499)
Nothing, really. Ludwig sometimes named a drum model after whichever famous drummer of the time was endorsing Ludwig. When Deems jumped the Ludwig ship, Ludwig just renamed it.


The Barret Deems was 5 1/2" deep and the Jazz Festival was 5".


There are plenty of 5 1/2" deep Jazz Fests out there, because we are talking about Ludwig, but they were always marketed, and were mostly supplied with a 5" depth.

Dan Boucher 09-16-2021 07:40 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
2 Attachment(s)
Here are two clips shown in the Vintage Drum Guide under the Ludwig section and the Jazz Festival history. They locate the Barrett Deems drum in 1957. In 1955 it was the Swingster Dance Model. Would they both have had the WFL badge in '55 and '57?

Johnny R. - Does yours have a date stamp?

Dan Boucher 09-16-2021 07:41 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Apologies, just noticed the photo with date stamp. Very cool.

Dan Boucher 09-16-2021 07:44 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Of note is that you have a "SYNCRO-MESH" strainer. No grinding with that baby.

thin shell 09-16-2021 08:52 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
One thing to keep in mind is that the Ludwig catalog numbering was one year ahead of the year that it was published. They were printed for a June 1 publication date. The Ludwig Drum Company number 57 was actually printed in '56 so was the '56 catalog. So the WFL number 55 was the '54 catalog.



Everything I have read says the WFL badge continued to '59 with some overlap with the Transition badge.

WFL got the Ludwig name back in '55 and came out with a new WFL badge that says Ludwig Drum Co at the bottom. The "Transition" Ludwig badge came out in '58, but Ludwig being Ludwig, used up parts with little consideration for consistency so overlapping badge types existed.



I wonder why the Transition badge got that name? It seems like the WFL badge with Ludwig Drum Co on the bottom would be a true transition badge because it has both the old name of WFL and the new name of Ludwig Drum Co.


But to answer your question, The Swingster would have the pre Ludwig Drum Co badge since it was introduced in '54 before getting their name back and whenever they had the new badges made. Depending on when they changed the name to Barret Deems, there might be a few that have the WFL/Ludwig Drum Co badge but probably not since Ludwig used up badges as they saw fit. The Barret Deems designation first seen in the '56 catalog (number 57) so they probably have either the Pre Ludwig Drum Co badge depending on when they were made as Ludwig used up old badges.

O-Lugs 09-16-2021 11:27 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thin shell (Post 469500)
The Barret Deems was 5 1/2" deep and the Jazz Festival was 5".


There are plenty of 5 1/2" deep Jazz Fests out there, because we are talking about Ludwig, but they were always marketed, and were mostly supplied with a 5" depth.

From the Ludwig drums website:

"First introduced to the market in the 1950s as the Buddy Rich Model Snare Drum, the Jazzfest took on its first form in the early 1960s as a 5.5" depth snare. This version of the Jazzfest would come to join the iconic line-up of tracks that Ludwig snares drums dominate."

leedybdp 09-16-2021 12:12 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Do you think it was Ludwig's decision to not label any of it's drum gear the "Ringo" model? Or, maybe did Ringo not authorize the use of his name even though he was a die hard Ludwig player?

thin shell 09-16-2021 12:58 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Lugs (Post 469506)
From the Ludwig drums website:

"First introduced to the market in the 1950s as the Buddy Rich Model Snare Drum, the Jazzfest took on its first form in the early 1960s as a 5.5" depth snare. This version of the Jazzfest would come to join the iconic line-up of tracks that Ludwig snares drums dominate."


Now you should know better than to use the Ludwig site as any sort of historical reference. In most cases, they don't have a clue.



Go back and look at the catalogs from that era. The Buddy Rich model had the classic strainer and was 5 1/2" deep and was even called the "Buddy Rich Model Super Classic" starting in the in the '48 catalog all the way through the '56 (#57) catalog. Buddy had left Ludwig by the time the '59 (#60) catalog was printed so Buddy Rich was dropped from the name and the snare was simply called the Super Classic from then on.

O-Lugs 09-16-2021 01:01 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leedybdp (Post 469508)
Do you think it was Ludwig's decision to not label any of it's drum gear the "Ringo" model? Or, maybe did Ringo not authorize the use of his name even though he was a die hard Ludwig player?


Good question...I don't know. To the best of my knowledge, there was never a Charlie Watts model Gretsch or a Keith Moon Premier model, either. And there was never named a John Bonham model, either. No Ginger Baker model....Maybe the Big Four manufacturers decided it was too much trouble....and then what do you do when an endorser jumps ship?

O-Lugs 09-16-2021 01:10 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thin shell (Post 469509)
Now you should know better than to use the Ludwig site as any sort of historical reference. In most cases, they don't have a clue.



Go back and look at the catalogs from that era. The Buddy Rich model had the classic strainer and was 5 1/2" deep and was even called the "Buddy Rich Model Super Classic" starting in the in the '48 catalog all the way through the '56 (#57) catalog. Buddy had left Ludwig by the time the '59 (#60) catalog was printed so Buddy Rich was dropped from the name and the snare was simply called the Super Classic from then on.

I'll defer to your research.

I've got a 5.5" 1964 Pioneer and I also had a 1970 5" Pioneer, too.

robyn64 09-16-2021 02:42 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
the BD snare is mahogany, is the jazzfest also mahogany? or does that make a difference in the two?

ps. congrats on your purchase mark, hope you enjoy.

jccabinets 09-16-2021 03:06 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
I have a snare that came to me with no badge. The strainer and butt have WFL stamped on them. It is a 5" deep drum, 8 lugs and all hardware is nickel. Goofy thing is, there is no tone control. I'm not sure if it is a jazz fest or a Deems.

thin shell 09-16-2021 03:23 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robyn64 (Post 469514)
the BD snare is mahogany, is the jazzfest also mahogany? or does that make a difference in the two?

ps. congrats on your purchase mark, hope you enjoy.


They both should be the same Mahogany/Poplar/Mahogany three ply shell.

thin shell 09-16-2021 03:31 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jccabinets (Post 469515)
I have a snare that came to me with no badge. The strainer and butt have WFL stamped on them. It is a 5" deep drum, 8 lugs and all hardware is nickel. Goofy thing is, there is no tone control. I'm not sure if it is a jazz fest or a Deems.


The '59 (#60) catalog shows the new Jazz Fest, which would have been a newly taken picture for the catalog and you can see that the strainer has the WFL logo on it so I would say it's an early Jazz fest. It should have narrow and deep snare beds to be that vintage.


Ludwig either had a large inventory of WFL stamped parts to use up or they took a long time to get the tooling changed to the Ludwig script logo. It's not uncommon to find WFL branded things well into the 60's.

johnnyringo 09-16-2021 05:09 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Wow! I didn't expect so much reaction, maybe I should sell it.Cool1

NOT!LoLoLoLo

O-Lugs 09-16-2021 08:05 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyringo (Post 469520)
Wow! I didn't expect so much reaction, maybe I should sell it.Cool1

NOT!LoLoLoLo

Yeah, it seems worth keeping. I think we're all just bugging for a new discussion about something that hasn't been discussed a million times already.

CTMichaelV 09-16-2021 09:04 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
A real beauty! Congrats on this great addition to your collection.

robyn64 09-16-2021 11:04 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thin shell (Post 469516)
They both should be the same Mahogany/Poplar/Mahogany three ply shell.

thanks for the info, wasn't sure because my '64 jazzfest is painted white on the inside. so not able to tell if it is mahogany or not.

hardbat 09-17-2021 05:45 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
How does one identify a Barrett Deems model snare drum? I'm a big fan of his, and have always wondered.

leedybdp 09-18-2021 10:19 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Ludwig has been inclined to recycle names given to drums, or make changes to the specs of a named drum or series of drums,or rename drums for various endorsing artists. . Slingerland also did this to a lesser degree. The designation of what is a Radio King drum varied greatly over the years. They also renamed the same drum outfit for a different artist.

Dudley 09-18-2021 11:08 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Jr Do you want another one to keep yours company?

ebay # 224607484323

Vintage Ludwig WFL Snare Drum #900 Super Classic Jazz Fest
Blue sparkle

Vintage March 27 1957 WFL Snare Drum #900 Super Classic.Three ply Mahogany shell with Maple reinforcement rings. The shell is nearly flawless with no fade In pound and no separation. Everything on the drum is nickel over brass. Date stamped shell. There is some pealing of the nickle plating in spots not to bad as you can see in pictures. Some tension rods are not original nor is the throw off ( Ludwig Nickle plated ) throw. Please ask questions and look at pictures. Thank you

O-Lugs 09-18-2021 12:21 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudley (Post 469534)
Jr Do you want another one to keep yours company?

ebay # 224607484323

Vintage Ludwig WFL Snare Drum #900 Super Classic Jazz Fest
Blue sparkle

Vintage March 27 1957 WFL Snare Drum #900 Super Classic.Three ply Mahogany shell with Maple reinforcement rings. The shell is nearly flawless with no fade In pound and no separation. Everything on the drum is nickel over brass. Date stamped shell. There is some pealing of the nickle plating in spots not to bad as you can see in pictures. Some tension rods are not original nor is the throw off ( Ludwig Nickle plated ) throw. Please ask questions and look at pictures. Thank you

Wow! That drum is only FOUR DAYS older than the Barrett Deems snare! That would be a nice set of snare drums to own, for sure!

Dudley 09-18-2021 02:24 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
The snare JR bought is in WAY more better condition than the one on ebay.

johnnyringo 09-18-2021 04:54 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudley (Post 469534)
Jr Do you want another one to keep yours company?

ebay # 224607484323

Vintage Ludwig WFL Snare Drum #900 Super Classic Jazz Fest
Blue sparkle

Vintage March 27 1957 WFL Snare Drum #900 Super Classic.Three ply Mahogany shell with Maple reinforcement rings. The shell is nearly flawless with no fade In pound and no separation. Everything on the drum is nickel over brass. Date stamped shell. There is some pealing of the nickle plating in spots not to bad as you can see in pictures. Some tension rods are not original nor is the throw off ( Ludwig Nickle plated ) throw. Please ask questions and look at pictures. Thank you

I can't even afford the one I have! I'll leave the one on eBay to someone else.Cool1

Rob the drummer 09-20-2021 02:23 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Interesting thread. I bought some years back on CL a Jazz Fest from 1971. I took the heads off to realize that it was about 5-3/4" deep, BUT it had no bearing edges or snare beds cut. Just flat boards.

I assume it was the last drum out on a Friday! I sent it to Precision and they put in period-correct edges and beds. It's still just under 5-1/2" and sounds great!

Dudley 09-20-2021 02:49 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
I visited Precision last Friday to pick up an order but I'll be going back again soon for some wrap. I always enjoy stopping by to see their work in progress.

Would you say that 5 3/4" is the normal depth to allow for cutting the bearing edges to achieve 5 1/2" depth? It does sound like a Friday blunder, I even wonder if it was intentional by a dis-grunted employee. Pink slip day?

Rob the drummer 09-20-2021 03:41 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudley (Post 469564)
I visited Precision last Friday to pick up an order but I'll be going back again soon for some wrap. I always enjoy stopping by to see their work in progress.

Would you say that 5 3/4" is the normal depth to allow for cutting the bearing edges to achieve 5 1/2" depth? It does sound like a Friday blunder, I even wonder if it was intentional by a dis-grunted employee. Pink slip day?

I don't know enough about the production process to answer your questions. I do believe that the Jazz Fest snares were advertised as 5" drums, so it's a bit unusual, but not unheard of, to see them deeper.

Dudley 09-20-2021 06:08 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
what's up with the Rogers toms in the background of the picture?

johnnyringo 09-20-2021 08:39 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hey guys, if I ever get any extra cash, the guy that sold me the BD snare told me he'd sell me the other WFL snare for $300. In case you forget, it's a 6.5x14 in a white lacquer finish.

johnnyringo 09-20-2021 08:40 PM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudley (Post 469569)
what's up with the Rogers toms in the background of the picture?

It's exactly that, a Rogers kit, I asked him the same thing.

Dan Boucher 09-21-2021 12:05 AM

Re: WFL Barrett Deems Snare
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyringo (Post 469573)
It's exactly that, a Rogers kit, I asked him the same thing.

Looks to be red onyx.


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