> He normally lays off the hihat on the 2&4,

Brew - I don't want to take your thread off-topic. But the hi-hat playing is what caught my attention right away. Charlie -always- lays off the 2 & 4 in a 4/4 groove. Always! It's a signature thing with him. When I heard the straight 8's in the recording, it got my attention right away. Not saying it isn't Charlie playing, just that if it is him, he changed up his style for that one recording.

As for the Purdie stuff; I read an interview awhile back where someone was asking Bernard about his Beatle claims. Bernards response was that, back in the day, they would fly him to London to work on the Beatle stuff and that in-between, he laid down some tracks for the Stones as well. Who knows if it's just Bernard telling war stories, or if there is any truth to it. I don't think we'll ever find out for sure.

Back to the thread!

John

Listening again, I think the difference in the sustain of the kick was probably just a natural accent on the downbeat. The last time I heard that song was on my car radio and the combination of typical radio transmission compression and my particular car stereo really made that a pronounced thing.

I would also be interested in various responses as to how to go about achieving that kick sound. I think it is far more beneficial to consider very quantifiable sounds to replicate as opposed to conversations about "how do you get a good bass drum sound". What type of sound and in what setting? Of course we always need to remember that a recorded sound is not necessarily an acoustic sound, especially with drums.

Charlie lays off the beat now,but I believe in the earlier days ,he did not.

I saw them in 1975,and I don't remember him doing that then...

It definetely sounds as if the beater is struck and let off the head. To me, that is the perfect amount of resonation. ooomph! Tnsquint- I got your PM, i will check out that bass drum

> It definetely sounds as if the beater is struck and let off the head.

Bingo! That's exactly what it sounds like. My late 50's 20" has that kind of deep resonance. I'm willing to bet the farm he used the Gretsch kit on that recording. I've been playing my RB kit the last month or so, so I have their sound stuck in my ears. I vote it was Charlie's old Gretsch bass drum! Sounds like it to me.

John

Purdie,

What head combination and tuning methods are you using on your Gretsch 20" that gets you in this neighborhood and in what kind of room are you playing the drum?

I am more than willing to say that not every kick drum will give you that sound regardless of what you do. And I will absolutely bet that a specific head combination that does work on one kick drum in one room environment for one drummer will not be necessarily work for another drummer in another situation.

His kick definitely sounds as thought it is pretty open and he appears to be playing out of the drum which hardly anyone does, even the guys that say they do. (that is a topic for another thread sometime) You can actually hear the times that he leaves the beater in the head and it is pretty random when that happens.

It is most likely a 14" deep drum (as that was about the only option at the time) but it could have been any diameter, though it sounds pretty large to me. He most likely had coated heads, but were smooth white an option at that time? It could also be calfskin I suppose. I think we all agree that the drum is pretty open yet free of a lot of the upper harmonics that sometimes accompany a really open kick drum.

Yes, I go for an open sound when tuning my drums. Can't tolerate the sound of choked/thuddy drums. I used an Evans coated on the reso. The perforated one with the tiny holes around the perimeter for venting. Evans coated EMAD on the batter side. No internal muffling. The reso is the head that produces the 'note.' And that's the key. I tune the reso head just above the lowest fundamental, when I hear the head start to resonate, I go quarter to a half turn above that. Right where the drum opens up full. The head produces a clear, deep, rich, low note when tapped. Like the sound of a human heart beat heard through a stethoscope. The batter I tune until I get a good response from it. Not dead slack, maybe a bit higher than most guys would tune the batter. When I hit it without burying the beater, the drum sings a beautiful, clear, deep note like you hear on the recording. It's also a (Brooklyn) 3-ply shell which sports air-cushioned rubber feet on the spurs, I'm sure it all helps the resonance of the drum.

There -is- a "Great Gretsch Sound" and my old RB kit has it in spades. I love the warmth, musical tone and solid sound of these drums. FAT-City!

Player Note: I know how to pull the sound out of a drum. It's all technique with the sticks. Anyone who wants to get a feel for it can start by practicing double-stroke rolls - accenting the second note in each pair. When you work it up to speed, you'll feel that you're picking the sticks up off the head to make the accent on the second note of each pair. It forces the stick to strike and then 'pull away', not bounce away, from the head. It -pulls- the sound out of a drum. The drum will sing and the head and shell will vibrate freely. No digging motion at all, nothing to stop/cut off, the vibrations. The technique also has the added advantage of really evening out your double stroke rolls at higher tempos. Try it!

Here's a quick tutorial from the master:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz1oUOtla9w[/ame]

John

Interesting tuning tip for kick drums. I am assuming you use one of the provided muffling rings on the EMAD. To me, the crux of the tuning concept falls squarely on how to deal with the upper harmonics and get that fundamental to really produce without having to use more muffling than I would like. We should also be considering the beater. Odds are his was hard felt. I am guilty of simply swinging around the felt side of a DW beater and it probably does not have the surface are required to produce that sound. I might think one of the square felt beaters would be in order. Then, what kind of beater pad if any?

As to Jim Chapin's tutorial, (I always find it hard to not hum 'Cat's in the Cradle' when I see him and that is actually pretty sad) those are all good points. I find it interesting that the fulcrum of his right stick falls into the second knuckle, but if it works, do it. Another way to go about accomplishing accenting the second stroke, and I think it is easier because it will happen by default, is just start practicing inverted rolls. A 5 stroke roll, instead of RRLLR would be RLLRR. That is kind of what he gets at towards the end but he never calls it that. Inverted rolls are incredibly useful for all kinds of things on a kit which is a nice by-product.

I also agree that the same technique should be used with your feet but I have seldom seen anyone do it. I'll talk with drummers about it and many tell me that they absolutly play "out of the kick" and then I watch them and the beater lands square on the head and stays there. In fact, I can't remember the last drummer that I have seen that does not do that and I see a lot of drummers. It seems to me that one place you would want to go to achieve a really fat, open kick drum sound is to learn to stay off the head. I play heel up but never bury my kick pedal. It always rebounds and the beater stays off of the head, even if I am only playing quarter notes or longer. The more open the kick tuning the more critical that becomes.

The thing about a Pratt muffler is this. It doesn't strap over the bearing edge. It comes up against the head from inside with progressive tension. So; if you strike the drum for an open note, it stays open. If you strike the drum for a closed note it stays closed because you are then causing the head and muffler to connect and the muffler becomes a factor all of a sudden. You can be playing with resounding open tones one minute and closed punchy ones the next or a combination if you carefully adjust the muffler relative to the beater strength and use your pedal pressure carefully.

If you listen to the recording the first two beats of the bass notes are ; very open, slightly open and then the third is closed. That's exactly the way a Pratt muffler works. Hard down stroke on the first note, letting the beater withdraw quickly for full sustain, then a less hard ,slightly closed stroke, allowing a slower withdrawl, so the head is just barely held, for less sustain and finally a full closed stroke so the muffler contacts the head for no sustain but a punchy sound. I don't know what drum he was using and I don't really care but dollars to doughnuts ,he was using a Pratt muffler , which both Gretsch and Trixon were both known to favour on their drums.

I believe you guys are making this much more difficult than need be back in those days recording guys just drug their stuff into the studio and played there was not all this high tech thinking on sound a lot of it was acoustics of the place where the recording was done. ie, led zep on Levee, or deep purple machine head... there were not so many bass drum heads available and 90 percent of everyone used remo you take a good vintage drum 20 inch BD and no felt strips and just lay a corner of a blanket onto the batter side and listen it will give you that sound.. I also play heel up and never bury my beater I would guess that song was played on a hard felt beater or maybe a wood beater IMO