Me personally? Given the fact that VDF has a high rate of business transactions, which are allowed, then then the negative feedback should be aired out. I know we have the good-guy feedback page where we compliment sellers for doing what they are basically supposed to do, but the bad sellers are really the one's whose names we should be reading. We are all adults here, and if there are massive flames, TommyP has the fire extinguisher. When buying a car, I would much rather know of the one or two models to avoid than which of the 50 good models to pick from..........

I say if you think you got snookered, air it out, completely, and allow us to formulate our own decisions. All this thread will ultimately accomplish is having me second guess any future transactions with guys who I think are "big time collector's" since the situation was explained, but not clearly. The "big time collector's" who have nothing to do with this, now have a stigma of possibly being your targeted seller. I am not sure that is fair to them.

DH - I have two strong reservations concerning a "negative feedback thread." (The opposite of our 'positive feedback thread.')

1. It's a lot like the death penalty; no matter how well documented the case, 'some' innocent people are bound to get fried.

2. Nobody, (especially someone who is actually guilty) ever takes a public indictment of dishonesty laying down. It invariably (as in; always) turns nasty and becomes contentious. That's not what I come here for.

I don't know about you, but it really takes the wind out of my sails every time I come here to either; get my drum-fix, or just to hang out with my buds and see what they're up to, to find long threads, often more than one or two, where people are rolling around on the ground trying to gouge each others eyes out. I hesitate to use hippy terms to describe it, but it just ruins the good vibe. That good vibe is what I love about the site and many of the people/drummers here. I enjoy the camaraderie, the feeling of community and the shared love of great old musical instruments, the just plain drum-talk that can be had here. I'd really hate to see all that colored by a section where people only fight. Right or wrong, I just don't think it's appropriate to the setting.

Nobody ever gets banned anyway... so what's the point?

I say 'no' to a negative feedback thread. For all of the above reasons.

Just my :2Cents:

John

PS - 55 - I have big-time respect for the discipline and character you show by not 'outing' the person(s) who took advantage of your trust. The Yiddish word for you and how you handled it is; mensch. (You're a real, Man. Cap intentional) J

This whole thread is just weird.

I don't read where I suggested a dedicated bad feedback thread that is opposite the good one. My whole point is that a crook should only ever be successful ONCE, or shame on whoever got taken by him the first time. I agree with your earlier post. NAME NAMES!!

Peace,

Dan

My overall experience on this forum has been positive...I never imagined I would learn so much about an instrument, that I love so much. I have made awesome purchases that I would have never made or found anywhere else...many members have answered my countless questions however simple for some or complicated, in taking the time to investigate something for me.....nothing is perfect of course....this is life....this is a great forum of open discussion and learning experience....Cool1

Being a crook doesnt require character. Neither does being an A'hole. Those are fairly easy things to do. Some folks take a great pride in accomplishment for having done one or the other. A few, take pride in both.

To quote Purdie....

"Nobody ever gets banned anyway... so what's the point?"

Maybe therein is the problem. Frankly, I dont have an issue with a death penalty for a deserving individual. And here, it certainly ought to be easier to sort out the issue of whether or not a deal was honestly dealt on both sides, and when the evidence demands it, then ... invoke the death penalty.

A recent sale I know of involving a drum with some issues that were not disclosed is a good example. The seller knew the issues, was warned of the issue, and then, in complete disregard for honesty, character, and honor... proceeded with the sale, not only ignoring the condition issue, but going out of his way to conceal the issue, which would tremendously impact the value of the drum. There were threads that vanished, or partially vanished because of the seller deleting initial posts for those threads.

Now, in my opinion, theres no need of a negative feedback routine to deal with that level of BS.

And there is really no excuse for that kind of character to be allowed to remain a part of this forum.

When a person is known for a propensity to dishonesty, then that person should be banned from selling, and quite frankly, participating. When they are allowed to continue to do both, then the blame has to be kicked upstairs. You cant blame a crook for being a crook any more than you can complain about a pig in a mudhole. When the mudhole is in your living room, then you can only blame yourself.

I have no idea what deal or deals or person or persons were being referred to in the OP.

Nobody gets banned from here. That's the problem. I've had folks PM me about their troubles with a certain individual I've dealt with. In the first case, it took MANY months to get his parts. In another example, the fella got the wrong parts and decided not to go the refund route due to all the BS he already put up with. Both were lied to repeatedly. Both folks PM'd me to thank me for trying to go public with it. I tried to shed some light and the thread got locked.

I've mainly gone back to DFO and ebay for my drum stuff. Aint worth the hassle.

I have no trouble selling stuff here. Buying might be a different situation. :Santa:

I have had some BAD buying experiences over on the DFO. It's interesting that is a safe place for you. In the last five transactions over there, four were bad. The seller was not forthcoming and sold me items definitely not as described. I kept it between myself and the seller and added them to my personal block list. Total crooks. Oddly enough, the one deal that went honestly and ethically was with a lawyer ... go figure.

Asking for the axe-man to start chopping member's head's off is a slippery slope. I am riding shotgun right now from New ORleans to Houston, so I have time to elaborate a bit.......

My first point is I prefer this place where the Mods are not trying to be the stars of the show. I liken this to those rare sporting events, more in the lower ranks like high school and even some small college, where the refs are trying to get their fair share of face time and want to be part of the spectacle. Nobody wants that and we certainly don't want the mods to be either. David is mostly behind the scenes and Tommy shows up when Buddy Rich or Dynasonics are mentioned, or when the flames are licking at the rooftops.....LOL.

Two. Many of us, and I can name specific examples if prodded (but I won't now as this isn't a post intended to fuel the fire, so to speak) would already be banned for this or that, if we had mods with hair triggers on their ban guns. Not specifically for the transactions, but other things. A lot of us have "had our moments" and have been allowed to remain.

Three. If they start to ban guys on here for being bad sellers, what is next? Banning guys for not shipping fast enough, not accepting pay pal? Also, it is a matter of opinion as some buyers do have some pretty lofty expectations. What is the criteria for being a bad seller?

Four. What is stopping a banned member from getting a new Id and selling within the next five minutes? My dad always told me that locks only keep honest people honest. Banning is essentially locking out a crook, and he will find a way to get back in.

Those are the immediate situations that come to mind. My personal feelings are simply posting about a crook is plenty enough to get into his wallet. I PM'd some nutty kook who used to lurk here often, Mcjnic, and asked him about some guy who quickly answered my want ad a couple years back for some Trods and claws. He gave me the scoop, and I passed on the deal. It was pretty much that easy. We all have our little circles of closer friends on here, that is inevitable, so if we all simply post about the crooks, and the good guys, and do a little private research, getting taken shouldn't be much of an issue. I have always said that sending your money to a random internet persona in the hopes that he is legitimate, and a "good guy", places the burden of any negative outcomes squarely on YOUR shoulders. You should know better. Myself, I don't worship money all that much and if I get burned, I will post his name and rail on about it a bit, but I won't pass the blame. It would be my fault for getting into that situation. Sure, this doesn't excuse the crook per se, but the blame is mine, again, for allowing him to rob me in the first place.

In summation, our best detterent is to simply keep posting about the crooks. If they know that they will be outed for any shenanigans, they will shape up or ship out, or simply not get any takers. This is the logical outcome.

Toodles

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