Please understand, my comments were not directed at you. Many (but not all) people who clean their own cymbals are clueless about doing it. I have seen shiny cymbals when both the stamp and lathing grooves have been partially or fully removed from machine buffing with who knows what kind of pad. I have seen shiny cymbals with permanent stains probably a result of caustic chemical use. Hell, I've even seen painted cymbals done by a teen who wanted them to match his drums.

The general level of incomptance when it comes to cymbal cleaning or modifcation is high. Just look at all the cymbals that have 20 or 30 rivet holes punched in them. It never ceases to amaze. If I bought something shiny on line, I wouldn't be able to tell if its covered with swirl marks from steel wool until I got it home. Too late then. That's why I pass shiny by.

Oh well I am sorry about that. Head was thinking one thing when it should have been thinking another.

My contention is that leaving the oxidation on cymbals came about from drummers simply not wishing to clean their cymbals all the time, so somehow it became cool to leave them with the oxidation on them and they gave it a cool name like "patina". Why don't drummers leave the rust on the hardware and the pits on the lugs and call that patina? The cymbals started out as shiny, brilliant instruments (just like the drums and hardware) and should be restored to that same state if one wishes to have a restored kit!

I also agree with drums2x. The sound everyone loved from the period those vintage cymbals were made is when they DID NOT have 50 years of oxidation on them. That was one of the best points I have heard yet in this epic debate, so obvious, yet so true!

Just my :2Cents:

have a wonderful evening

drumhack guitar2Chewie:Stage Band2Car Driving2

Agreed. And a shiny cymbal with a just polished kit completes the package. So does anyone have any cleaning techniques or items they use? I see cymbal polish and cleaner but i also see people saying how they actually take metal off?? That is not good.

You have a point. Why "patina'd" cymbals are cool, but rusty harware not-so-much?

I have to disagree with you.

First patina on a cymbal can not really be equated with the destructive pitting on hardware. Second, if you were to look at photos of the great drummers of the '40s '50's and '60's you would find that the majority of the cymbals they used had already lost their shine and either had, or were developing a deep patina.

During that period, sometimes you would see new cymbal sets used for live TV specials or certain concerts so they would sparkle under the studio lights, but in clubs , concert halls, recording studios, and the majority of promotional photos, the cymbals were not shiny. I have dozens of clips of drumming greats from that period on DVD and have seen countless others on youtube and the like, and shiny cymbals were definitely in the minority. One exception is Buddy Rich whose cymbals almost always looked brand new when he played on TV, but when I saw him once in concert the set he used was far from shiny.

Finally, I started playing drums in 1959 at age 13. When I got my first set of Zildjian's later that year I was upset when they began to get marked up and lose their luster. Than I began to look around and realized that only new cymbals shone. Virtually no one shined or cleaned their cymbals back then, which is how all the patina we have on vintage cymbals today got there in the first place. Through my youth, and over the decades, numerous drummers, older and wiser than me, told they never shined their cymbals for fear of altering the tonality.

Today I know a couple of dozen working drummers personally from ages 20 to over 70, including my son, and not one, not one single one, shines his cymbals.

Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen !!!!!!!!!!

[quote=BosLover;150186]I have to disagree with you.

First patina on a cymbal can not really be equated with the destructive pitting on hardware.

The "destructive" pitting on the hardware surely would have rendered the drum obslete by now if it was that destructive. I agree it can/will eventually consume the base metal, but not in our lifetimes. Vintage drums would be just fine with rusty rims, lugs and hardware. Just maybe the threads would have to be cleaned off from time to time. It is all an appearance thing for the most part.

Second, if you were to look at photos of the great drummers of the '40s '50's and '60's you would find that the majority of the cymbals they used had already lost their shine and either had, or were developing a deep patina.

My point exactly! Who in their right mind wants to clean cymbals all the time? They didn't want to do the work, and they didn't have all of the cool products that we enjoy today. So, the cymbals were left to turn ugly, and the people who really worshipped those drummers saw that and figured that was the way to go. 50 years later, we are a community that shuns restoring a brilliant instrument to it former glory and I believe it to be a much less sexy reason than "patina gives a sound" or "patina is cool". I believe it to be lack of effort for the most part.

During that period, sometimes you would see new cymbal sets used for live TV specials or certain concerts so they would sparkle under the studio lights, but in clubs , concert halls, recording studios, and the majority of promotional photos, the cymbals were not shiny. I have dozens of clips of drumming greats from that period on DVD and have seen countless others on youtube and the like, and shiny cymbals were definitely in the minority. One exception is Buddy Rich whose cymbals almost always looked brand new when he played on TV, but when I saw him once in concert the set he used was far from shiny.

On this point, I have no relevant experience to offer. No offense, but I really don't dig the old music too much anyways, so I haven't really put much time in to see much of what this section references.

Finally, I started playing drums in 1959 at age 13. When I got my first set of Zildjian's later that year I was upset when they began to get marked up and lose their luster. Than I began to look around and realized that only new cymbals shone. Virtually no one shined or cleaned their cymbals back then, which is how all the patina we have on vintage cymbals today got there in the first place. Through my youth, and over the decades, numerous drummers, older and wiser than me, told they never shined their cymbals for fear of altering the tonality.

It has been said by many on here that the patina alters the sound as well. So, if those guys really liked the cymbal enough to buy it in when it was new, then they should be more concerned with keeping that original sound and not allowing the patina to change that sound. This would involve putting the work in and keeping it shiny.

Today I know a couple of dozen working drummers personally from ages 20 to over 70, including my son, and not one, not one single one, shines his cymbals.

I can't argue with that. My original point was that through the years, drummers have created this "patina is cool" mantra to avoid cleaning their cymbals. This statement only shows the logical evolution of drumming regarding cymbals and patina.

Have a wonderful evening

Drumhack guitar2Car Driving2Chewie:Chewie:

I freakin' LOVE it!!!!!

Patina does change the sound. Paite Colorsound coating (IMO) has the same effect as 25 years of "patina".

I am trying to create 25 years of patina on my brass Shade cymbal (yes, it's lampshade shape!!!) to change the sound. I have already mellowed it out by quite a bit, but I want a teeny bit more...

First, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think that my intermediate K with a golden bronze patina is a thing of beauty and not ugly at all.

The main point of my post was to counter the argument that to return cymbals to their like new shiny state would more accurately give us the vintage sound that many of us crave. In truth even back in the day, most cymbals that were played and recorded had a patina, and were not pristine with a like new shine. Regardless of why that occured, that's the way they were played and that sound is what we hear today.

To argue as I think someone did that they weren't cleaned due in part to laziness, or that not polishing them made younger drummers somehow feel cool, is silly. There were pleanty of prducts available that would do the job,they were just not marketed by drum companies. And no one, I repeat, no one, thought it was somehow cool to play cymbals without a shine. The reason they weren't cleaned is very simple. Musicians who played those cymbals were more interested in how they sounded than how they looked. They simply did not care if they weren't shiny. And, over time these cymbals took on a darkness and woodiness due mostly to extensive playing, and in part to the patina. Seems like some drummers today are more interested in how things look rather than sound. So maybe shiny cymbals make them feel cool, eh?