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  #11  
Old 11-07-2019, 09:00 PM
hardbat hardbat is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

I'll revise my vote and change it to Italian. I too was concerned by the Arabic, it looked more like ones I'd seen on Italian cymbals. And although the hammer pattern looks more Italian, my first stamp has large dimples too. On second look, though, they are less regularly spaced. What made me think K was that I hadn't seen that font on an Italian before. Also, the Arabic portion reminded me of that "stamp 0" on Rob Scott's site, and the discussion we had years ago with the upside down version. But now I'm leaning Italian.
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2019, 06:43 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Sorry about the brevity of my answer. I was having a strange network problem which has kept me from getting to VDF for many days. I've finally narrowed it down to the Apple Airport. I switched back (temporarily) to my older Dynalink router and that works. So it must be something different in one of the myriad settings. No other web sites were affected. I moved from the Dynalink to the Airport because the wireless support on the Dynalink quit working. But I was on the Airport for weeks using VDF successfully so I don't know what might have changed. My previous post was made on a Mac PowerBook leaning out the window using the wireless network connection from my neighbor (with permission) and I didn't have access to any of my usual tools, reference collection, etc. Now I'm temporarily back on my main machine but if I disappear for some days again...you will know why. Network problems.

The short answer to your question about why I don't think that one Drumaholic linked to is a genuine K is:

The trademark isn't a Zildjian trademark. The Arabic portion isn't right. The Arabic portion does share stylistic similarities with other Italians pretending to be Turkish in my reference collection.

The only English is Constantinople. I've got many examples of Italian cymbals which add the word Constantinople to try and look Turkish in origin. The K Zildjian stamp which first includes English (Type 1) has K Zildjian and Constantinople. Never Constantinople on its own like that.

The hammering with large dimples is an Italian style. The real K Zildjians of the same period don't have such large dimples.

The bell shape doesn't feel quite right to me on the one Drumaholic linked to, but I can't yet give metrics on why. I'm still working on that. Although there are differences between bells in terms of the sharpness of bell bow transition (and other shape components) I can't say what if any of those differences are diagnostic of Italian vs Turkish K Zildjian.

I'm also not able to say whether there are diagnostic lathing differences.



Yes that is a proper K Zildjian Constantinople Stamp 1 in your attached photos. In my records I haven't got any examples where a partial stamp has the entire line saying K Zildjian missing. Others may have such an example.

That isn't a large example but see if you can spot the differences in the Arabic portion when comparing that one to the one Drumaholic linked to.

Have a look at the hammering style on that compared to the one Drumaholic linked to. See if you can spot what I'm talking about as regards larger dimples on the Italian.


The dimples was always a question for me so I said they went to town on the front. That confused me. The bottom of the bell just looks all kinds a K to me.

Anyways, some of us will guessed wrong,at least one of us will got fooled by a wannabe.
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2019, 11:03 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

Found and fixed the problem which was an out of date entry in a DNS record at my ISP. Now I can post a picture showing the common pictorial element which is found in the K Zildjian Constantinople trademarks and missing in the that one Drumaholic linked to:



These are the sorts of things Italian cymbals have to try and look Turkish





although there are several variants.

These are the large dimples on another Italian cymbal. We know this one is Italian because it has one of the Italian signatures. And yes they added the word "Constantinople" under the signature.





These Italian cymbals were made to be hard to tell apart from K Zildjian cymbals so it isn't surprising that is the case. From the Ludwig & Ludwig catalog 1912-13.

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  #14  
Old 11-08-2019, 11:12 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

As a permanent record, I have attached the photos in the eBay auction which Drumaholic linked to (for when the auction disappears)

And a Zveltiam (Italian) trademark which goes all out to look Turkish with the star and moon as well as the word Constantinople in a curve.



And that Italian one in my previous post which does have a different type of trademark in addition to the signature.

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Last edited by zenstat; 11-08-2019 at 11:24 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:09 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
As a permanent record, I have attached the photos in the eBay auction which Drumaholic linked to (for when the auction disappears)

And a Zveltiam (Italian) trademark which goes all out to look Turkish with the star and moon as well as the word Constantinople in a curve.



And that Italian one in my previous post which does have a different type of trademark in addition to the signature.



You're putting up a pretty good case for a well done fake wannabe cymbal. But I'm not swayed yet. If anyone could sway me, it would be you.

I said I wont but I will touch the trademark. It's of the same tools and in the shape of an eyeball with only enough room for K Zildjian above it, nothing else.

Of all the Italian you posted, Bill's link has the one thing in common as the actual K's that been posted,....It has the shiny.
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  #16  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:24 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

Although they look the same, travel the same and called the same,.... I see two different ships on this horizon.
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Last edited by OddBall; 11-09-2019 at 12:33 PM.
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  #17  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:27 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

Here is another Italian:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-12-...AAAOSw93xdr1NP

at least I presume you can see the trademark (known Italian) and the signature under the bell (Italian) plus X E Ajaha which names the maker (Italian, although the trademark is actually property of Gretsch). Ajaha was one of the brands on offer for those who wanted less expensive cymbals to go with their Gretsch kit. There are a few Ajaha trademarks on the UFIP stencil brand list, although it seems that some Ajaha were made by Italian companies not affiliated with UFIP at the time of manufacture. Production may have moved around. The seller doesn't seem to know any of this.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You asked why my vote was for Italian. I've shown you. You should really be asking Drumaholic what he thinks and why he posted the link which started this thread. It might be his "Socratic method" at work.
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  #18  
Old Yesterday, 09:05 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Here is another Italian:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-12-...AAAOSw93xdr1NP

at least I presume you can see the trademark (known Italian) and the signature under the bell (Italian) plus X E Ajaha which names the maker (Italian, although the trademark is actually property of Gretsch). Ajaha was one of the brands on offer for those who wanted less expensive cymbals to go with their Gretsch kit. There are a few Ajaha trademarks on the UFIP stencil brand list, although it seems that some Ajaha were made by Italian companies not affiliated with UFIP at the time of manufacture. Production may have moved around. The seller doesn't seem to know any of this.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You asked why my vote was for Italian. I've shown you. You should really be asking Drumaholic what he thinks and why he posted the link which started this thread. It might be his "Socratic method" at work.


It totally is, he's gonna sink me or you (and Hardbat now) with the ID. Notice VDF members trying, the new forum brothers from the other site wont attempt. Because that's Bill's link and question. Bring on the A Zildjian employees and logistics,...this one is not cut and dry.

I'm sticking to my guns. I think it's K.
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  #19  
Old Yesterday, 09:08 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

The link to the other Italian has not the shiny either. That mixture don't shine like a K.
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  #20  
Old Yesterday, 09:16 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: K or not a K?

The Italian cymbals are ageing exactly the way I've seen and expect Bronze to age. K's don't do that.
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