Vintage Drum Forum the best vintage drum forum on the Internet - Vintage Drum History - Vintage Drum Questions

Go Back   Vintage Drum Forum > Vintage Cymbals

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:42 AM
prfoks prfoks is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 2
Default Vintage Paiste Formula 602 17'' Crash

Hey, fellas!

I'm interested in finding out more about this beauty. It's a preserial 17 inch Paiste Formula 602 cymbal. It's not labeled as a crash, and is super thick, so maybe it should be called a heavy cymbal. Easily played as a ride because it's very thick and heavy, but still sounding quite jazzy. It weights in around 1790g. It only has a little red "17" written on the bottom, and that's it. I've added some pictures. I want to know the exact year of production, and an exact name of the cymbal. I reckon it's from the 1960s. Thanks to all the vintage-heads out there!

Prfoks.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	43703355_557997264637143_215521592057266176_n.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	57.1 KB
ID:	121916   Click image for larger version

Name:	43665226_2166849433588996_3397892668183805952_n.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	139.5 KB
ID:	121917   Click image for larger version

Name:	43649874_357223148352664_4042976436552728576_n.jpg
Views:	39
Size:	123.1 KB
ID:	121918  

Last edited by prfoks; 10-11-2018 at 10:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-11-2018, 04:00 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,571
Default Re: Vintage Paiste Formula 602 17'' Crash

prfoks

It isn't usually possible to get an exact production year for cymbals unless they have the year coded on them in the serial number. It also isn't always possible to tell the exact model when all traces of model ink have gone. But in this case I can point out a few things which narrow it down.

On current evidence serial numbers began in the second half of 1972, so that cymbal is older than mid 1972. The model is a Seven Sound Set #3 Bright Ride. Production on those probably started around 1964, so 1964 to mid 1972.

Here's why:

That cymbal has the fine tonal groove lathing (versus the coarse tonal groove lathing found on most 602s). The fine tonal groove lathing was used on Sound Edge hats and Flat Rides in the main 602 line. Fine tonal groove lathing was used on the Seven Sound Set series, and on the Joe Morello series.

The 17" diameter means that is a Joe Morello crash or a Seven Sound Set #3 Bright Ride.

The weight confirms it is a Bright Ride. They run from 1750g to 1930g. The Joe Morello crashes are more like 1300g. The hammering is also characteristic of Bright Ride hammering and distinct from the main line 602 rides and crashes. So it is a Bright Ride from what I can see.

There are also 17" Medium Ride models which run from 1500g to 1600g, but that model (along with other main line 602 models like Thin and Medium) are ruled out by the combination of lathing and weight. There are also Concert models and Marching models. The few examples I've got for those all have coarse tonal groove lathing and I haven't seen a 17".

I don't have a well established first year of production for the Seven Sound Set series. They are said to be 1969 on this site:

http://www.nf-drums.com/paiste_fanpa...e_timeline.htm

but I'm not sure why that site uses that year. Hugo Pinksterboer (The Cymbal Book, p158) gives 1964. They appear in the 1972 Ludwig Catalog. Since the demise of the Paiste Only Wiki some of the well established information has been lost. Some of the others involved in picking up the pieces might know of ads or other catalogs which help with first year of production for the Seven Sound Set series. I'd go with 1964 for now.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 10-11-2018 at 04:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:28 PM
prfoks prfoks is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 2
Default Re: Vintage Paiste Formula 602 17'' Crash

Wow, dude! You are insane! That's more information than I could have ever expected. Thanks for the detailed answer. Are you some sort of a walking drum library? :P
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-26-2018, 10:21 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: South Florida
Posts: 20
Default Re: Vintage Paiste Formula 602 17'' Crash

Adding on to Zenstat's post.

it looks from the Paiste materials I have from back then (and I have a lot) that the Seven Sound Set cymbals went on sale to the general public in 1968 possibly a little earlier.

Ludwig did not start carrying the Seven Sound Set until 1969 (same with Giants Beats). These cymbals first appear in the Ludwig Drummer Magazine (Fall 1968) as new products for 1969 before they appear in any Ludwig Catalog.

It looks like 1964 is when development of the SSS started as 1964 is when the 602 China was developed, so I think that's why the Cymbal Book gives that date as that date is used by Paiste on their corporate production timeline (which according to my research has some inaccuracies but holds up in most cases).

prfoks if you are in the USA and the cymbal has spent it's life in America than it most likely originally came through Ludwig, so I would date it between 1969 and first half of 1972.

If you are in Europe the same dates apply but there is also the possibility the cymbal is a little older as there is evidence of prototype SSS cymbals and SSS cymbals given to Paiste endorsers prior to the release to the public in ~1968.

Last edited by monkeyboy827; 10-26-2018 at 10:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-26-2018, 04:37 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,571
Default Re: Vintage Paiste Formula 602 17'' Crash

Thanks for the additional info monkeyboy. I haven't forgotten this thread and have on my list to add an analysis of price and weight info for the 17" 602s which includes all the models (including Morello and SSS3 Bright Ride) plus the added context of pricing for 16" and 18" 602s (of different models) to give more context. Part of the reason for that is most odd diameters (for all brands and lines) have far fewer sales than even diameters so I'm trying to interpolate between 16" and 18" in this situation to help fill out the picture in this case.
The template for that analysis is going to be generic enough that it will do for an up to date analysis of all my Paiste data (with modern graphics -- I like informative graphics). But it is slow going.

One of the things I've been puzzled about with the SSS4 (flat ride) is whether or not they came out before the patent was submitted for the flat ride. Paiste Flat Ride: United States Patent 3,546,994 Filed Jan 22, 1969 and Issue Date: December 15, 1970. Usually an inventor would not put a new invention into production until the patent was officially filed. Otherwise they are "revealing their art" which can have impacts on their ability to patent the invention.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
602 , crash , formula , paiste , vintage cymbal

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2009 VSDwebdesign