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  #11  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:02 PM
Peedy Peedy is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal Ink and the Evolving Understanding of Weight

And here's the best I can do with an ultra close up.

Pete
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  #12  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:20 PM
Peedy Peedy is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal Ink and the Evolving Understanding of Weight

And then there's my 16 inch MEDIUM crash (1050g) from about 1958. Same hammering as my favorite 14 inch crash (660g) of the same time period. Rides well too.

Pete
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  #13  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:51 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal Ink and the Evolving Understanding of Weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peedy View Post
Thanks Steve. I always want to leave open the possibility of being wrong as my wife frequently tells me I am. Photos . . .

Also want to reiterate that the bell is significantly larger than other 18s I've own and still own. Actually about the size of my 20in mid 60s ride crash. I'm familiar with Zildjian doing that for a couple of years in the mid 1950s. But still.


Pete
Yes that is the Special Cup. Starting some time in the 1960s Zildjian started using that cup on 18" to 20" Crash and Crash Ride models. This is already well documented, and your 18" cymbal is one of 100s I've recorded like that. It isn't unusual. And having looked at hundreds I know that the Special Cup also looks a little flatter on top, as yours does. But I use more accurate assessments than "looks flatter on top" whenever I can. I've traced that Special Cup back to at least the Large Stamp era (mid 50s) and am still working through all the evidence on use in the Trans Stamp era. Back then it was used on 22" and larger cymbals based on the current evidence.

Yes the Special Cup was around in the mid 50s and very occasionally it does turn up on an 18" or a 20" cymbal. That is what I was alluding to before as an example where we might be looking at specific models with a larger bell. In order to be sure about that we need to verify the Cup in a mid 50s 18" cymbal, examine it and confirm that it hasn't been cut down. Then it could still be a one off factory event where somebody loaded the wrong die in the bell press. This is where having quality data on many hundreds of cymbals starts to come in. That gives us the context about how rare some of these cymbals are. In some cases specific models have been noticed first, and later found in catalogs. For example, the Paper Thin Deep Cut model of K Zildjian from the late 30s

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/K_Zildji...tinople_Type_3
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  #14  
Old 02-12-2020, 06:23 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal Ink and the Evolving Understanding of Weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peedy View Post
And then there's my 16 inch MEDIUM crash (1050g) from about 1958. Same hammering as my favorite 14 inch crash (660g) of the same time period. Rides well too.

Pete
That one will have the Small Cup because that's what Zildjian used on cymbals up to 17" at that time. The MEDIUM ink is the sloping out M version which was in use for some time. Again I haven't pinned down the changeover to the thicker ink font without the sloping out M. You can see where that weight fits in the bigger picture. These are separated by production era and sorted by increasing weight within each production era:

Era Ink Weight

T3: Medium Thin 909g
T3: sizzle but no ink 979g
Trans: no ink 1400g (presume Marching Band? Or just a Heavy?)

Large Stamp: no ink but medium cup 921g (an example of a larger than usual cup size on a 16")

Small Stamp: no ink 825g
Small Stamp: Medium 1050g <<< yours -- also see below for comments
Small Stamp: Medium Bounce 1124g (weight class ink plus model ink, Small cup)
Small Stamp: no ink sizzle 1601g (presume Marching Band? Or just a Heavy?)

60s Medium 928g
60s Thin 1009g
60s Fast 1035g
60s Medium Thin 1044g
60s reputed RIDE ink 1260g
60s reputed RIDE ink 1275g

78-82 Thin Crash 795g (weight possibly misreported or it was a Paper Thin or Extra Thin?)
70s: Paper Thin Crash 868g (my cymbal and you can trust the weight)
78-82 Thin Crash 1020g
78-82 Thin Crash 1044g
78-82 Thin Crash 1061g
78-82 Thin Crash 1085g
78-82 Medium Thin Crash 1134g
82-91 Medium Thin Crash 1144g
78-82 Medium Crash 1197g
78-82 Rock Crash 1330g

These aren't all 100% double checked data yet, but you should get the idea that the picture is complex. I'm slowly working through more data checking and recoding and hopefully will make progress on a bespoke statistical method which lets us use all the data (cymbals with ink and without ink) from all the diameters and production eras to produce a model which is anchored in places where we have the data, and imputes the general pattern of Weight Classes across the whole of the range. The range being 8" to 26" diameter, by 90 years of production, by the 6 (or 8) weight classes. The weight classes are "6 or 8" because of the little wrinkles with the Ex. Thin vs Paper Thin classes and whether or not to include Ex. Heavy as a separate from just Heavy. I suspect lack of cymbals with ink will mean using just the 6 basic weight classes. There are cymbals smaller than 8" and larger than 26" but probably not enough with ink to do much. We'll see what we can manage. We're already looking at a 3 way classification with 19 diameters by 6 weight classes by 12 production eras so there are 1,368 cells we need estimates for. We have a very sparse data matrix, so a lot of clever use of statistics is called for. But then I would say that wouldn't I?

In the late 50s some cymbals were called Bounce and there is a theory that these were a bit heavier. There wasn't ink saying Ride as such, and in general there were just different weight classes. The Ride vs Crash terminology did not take off until a bit later. I'd say your cymbal with MEDIUM ink is best referred to as a MEDIUM and not a "MEDIUM crash". Yours is a little lighter than the BOUNCE model in the same diameter, but there is so little data on BOUNCE models across all diameters that it is too soon to interpret that as confirmation of the theory that the BOUNCE model is heavier in the general case. The history of cymbal study is littered with people jumping to conclusions using inadequate data. And on that note I haven't yet tackled the question of whether the MEDIUM weight class became the MEDIUM RIDE later on, and the THIN became the THIN CRASH later on... We need to check out how the weight classes pre and post differentiation into RIDE and CRASH (and CRASH RIDE which sits in between) actually line up rather than just assume we know what's what.
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Last edited by zenstat; 02-13-2020 at 02:13 PM.
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  #15  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:47 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal Ink and the Evolving Understanding of Weight

First up the 22" weight ranges from LuvMyLeedy which are still in use. I had a close look and I can see how they were constructed. The ranges use a 10% range for each weight class, so construct a +5% and -5% range around the midpoint. This is approximate because the ranges are chosen to reflect "nice" numbers.



BTW the +5% and -5% fits with my other research on what the coefficient of variation actually is for specific models, and for the A Avedis series where the "official" target ranges are known.

Looking at the counts of cymbals in different weight ranges by production era we can see the pattern of weights stepping up a bit across the decades. The 2013 column marks the cymbals after the 2013 reset to the design.



How much of the move towards the heavier categories in the weight ranges is due to specific heavier models? MEDIUM THIN and MEDIUM both moved up a weight class between the 50s and the 60s/70s. By the 80s MEDIUM was straddling Medium and Medium Heavy. But this needs a note of caution because there is MEDIUM ink on a 50s cymbal which is also in the Medium Heavy category on weight. Also it looks like THIN stayed THIN.



The PING model moved from Medium weight class in the 50s to Heavy Weight Class by the 70s. I mentioned before that PING didn't mean what most people think it means (Heavy) when they first came into use.

HEAVY RIDES and EARTH RIDES come into the Ex. Heavy weight class, as does the DEEP RIDE (including the reissue ones from the 90s). There is a LIGHT ride in the 80s which is in the same weight range as a MEDIUM RIDE. It looks odd to see them in the Heavy weight class in the 80s, but that may be clarified when we see what the 20" cymbals were doing. I have many more of those in my sample because there are lots more 20" sales than 22" sales.


Can we use the same Weight Class ranges in looking at K Zildjian cymbals? Yes they do seem useful. You can see the weight rises from Old Stamp to Intermediate Stamp to New Stamp. Then with the New Ks the weights increased. Specific models are shown for those. You can also see how the K Constantinople series has brought the weights back down into Thin, Medium Thin and Medium.



All of this bodes well for further analysis of all the other diameters being worthwhile. I have a lot more 20" and 18" data then 22" so we should learn more and have a better picture. But first I need to solve the problem of generating "nice" weight ranges for other diameters.
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Last edited by zenstat; 02-15-2020 at 09:57 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-15-2020, 11:16 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal Ink and the Evolving Understanding of Weight

And my first attempt to apply similar weight classes to Paiste 602 and Sound Creation 22" cymbals is here.



In the 22" diameter there aren't really any Paper Thin cymbals or Ex. Thin. Cymbals with the THIN ink are Thin, and the reissue THIN CRASH falls in the THIN weight range. In the preserial era Thin Crashes are in the weight category called that, but the later Black Label period has Paper Thin falling in the Thin Crash category just over the category edge. Medium Rides are medium ride weight class, until the reissue period when they are Heavy weight class (but just over the line). Note that for Paiste the designation Medium is different and lighter than Medium Ride. A Paiste Medium ride is a Medium Heavy by Old A standards. Extra Heavy cymbals don't appear until the Sound Creations (1978) when the heaviest of the Dark Rides get over the 3500g mark, but only just.

The Sound Creation cymbals have Thin weight class Dark Chinas, Medium Ride weight class Dark Flats and Medium Dark Rides. Dark Rides are Heavy weight class as expected, and Bell Rides are a little heavier then the Dark Rides. Some models straddle the weight category boundaries. The adaptation of the Zildjian based weight classes isn't great. The category boundaries don't seem to in quite the right places.
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