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  #81  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:12 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

How else would Iron get into a non ferrous metal ?? Iron Sulfide, (Pyrite) Fools gold is just that, but don't be fooled, Gold runs next to it.
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  #82  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:25 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
Yes because Aram came over and showed Avedis III , who was in the Confectionery business at the time, how and what the procedure entailed.
That is also interesting. Was there a fight over that formula secret ?
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  #83  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:53 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
Interesting chart. Did not know you had it. Not much gets by you so it's safe to say accurate (minus the Wiki stuff)
Cymbal Wiki is my site so if you are saying my site is not accurate then please contact me privately and we'll see what you can offer to help to improve it. If you mean Wikipedia (there are a couple of links to Wikipedia on that Alloy page) then if you aren't happy with the Wikipedia information you have to deal with them. The reason I have my own site is I can publish original research which Wikipedia doesn't allow. They wanted me to publish it somewhere else first so I could then refer to it on Wikipedia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
Do you suspect it in the K's ? A lot of n/a not assayed going on with that Element in the chart. If you don't look for it you wont find it.
The na results are because this is a meta-analysis where I have scoured the web for any mentions of cymbal alloy composition testing. The entries where many elements are assessed (along with Vikers hardness) come from my own materials I had tested. Occasionally the piece of cymbal I had wasn't large enough for some tests.

The Sulfur and and Iron relate to the other parts of the casting and rolling process. They get into the alloy in minute amounts. The accuracy of the test picks them up. It also picks up the Gold (and Silver). The problem for your theory is that there is Gold in other bronze alloys at about the same trace elements level. So there isn't anything unique about the old Ks. Gold is found at a similar level in Chinese sourced alloy, some modern Avedis Zildjians, and Paiste 602 alloy. Same with the theory that "the secret" is added Silver. The pattern of which cymbals it is found in rules that out too. Same with the proportion of Tin a bit higher than 20% being "the secret". All of these things have an impact on the alloy, but they are all ruled out as being a "secret of Old K sound" given the results so far. But the idea of "Secrets" plays out in advertising copy.
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  #84  
Old 01-01-2020, 03:56 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Cymbal Wiki is my site so if you are saying my site is not accurate then please contact me privately and we'll see what you can offer to help to improve it. If you mean Wikipedia (there are a couple of links to Wikipedia on that Alloy page) then if you aren't happy with the Wikipedia information you have to deal with them. The reason I have my own site is I can publish original research which Wikipedia doesn't allow. They wanted me to publish it somewhere else first so I could then refer to it on Wikipedia.



The na results are because this is a meta-analysis where I have scoured the web for any mentions of cymbal alloy composition testing. The entries where many elements are assessed (along with Vikers hardness) come from my own materials I had tested. Occasionally the piece of cymbal I had wasn't large enough for some tests.

The Sulfur and and Iron relate to the other parts of the casting and rolling process. They get into the alloy in minute amounts. The accuracy of the test picks them up. It also picks up the Gold (and Silver). The problem for your theory is that there is Gold in other bronze alloys at about the same trace elements level. So there isn't anything unique about the old Ks. Gold is found at a similar level in Chinese sourced alloy, some modern Avedis Zildjians, and Paiste 602 alloy. Same with the theory that "the secret" is added Silver. The pattern of which cymbals it is found in rules that out too. Same with the proportion of Tin a bit higher than 20% being "the secret". All of these things have an impact on the alloy, but they are all ruled out as being a "secret of Old K sound" given the results so far. But the idea of "Secrets" plays out in advertising copy.

Not what I meant at all. I meant Wikipedia in general that can be edited by anyone. I take that site with a grain of salt.

I place a high value on your input to cymbal talk. Very high. I really never looked at the name of your site.

Well yes, there is Gold in other Bronze elements, Because Gold runs with Copper, the main metal in Bronze. K's from the older days just don't tarnish the same as others or even newer brands. Gold does not react to air or water. No matter how old a K is, it has a shine, no matter how old Gold is, it has a shine. Strange coincidence.
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  #85  
Old 01-01-2020, 04:15 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

A bit higher in tin would give it harness, to help with cracks in thin cymbals. Old K's have a shine no other cymbals have and retain it, even until today. That can't be ignored. In a crucible, Copper will cool while Gold is still molten liquid, it's a small temp. difference but Copper will be at the bottom while the gold will be at the top after all is cooled. At those temps the metal stirs it'self, the molten will go to the top of the cooling. That puts it on top of the ingot. Rolling it will not mix it if you roll it below the Copper melting point.

I,m 0 and whatever against you in these kind of debates, when I loose I learn. There's a reason old K's don't loose their shine. Nor do they wash easy.

Has anyone tested a 20,s or teens, or ....1800's ? They did make cymbals then Correct ?
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Last edited by OddBall; 01-01-2020 at 04:29 AM.
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  #86  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:32 AM
jda jda is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
That is also interesting. Was there a fight over that formula secret ?
Absolutely not. It was passed on (to family) religiously ceremonially..
He was being blessed with it..
the shine comes from the lathe tools..how the cut reflected light..
There were cymbals (anecdotally) since 1623 but the earliest Zildjian that exists for view today....well that's a good question...I'll guess something from the 1800's may exist but no one tmk ever pictured it.
http://www.turkishculture.org/music/...cymbal-285.htm

Last edited by jda; 01-01-2020 at 10:37 AM.
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  #87  
Old 01-01-2020, 03:55 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
Absolutely not. It was passed on (to family) religiously ceremonially..
He was being blessed with it..
the shine comes from the lathe tools..how the cut reflected light..
There were cymbals (anecdotally) since 1623 but the earliest Zildjian that exists for view today....well that's a good question...I'll guess something from the 1800's may exist but no one tmk ever pictured it.
http://www.turkishculture.org/music/...cymbal-285.htm
Why does the article call it Zilcyian ?

So He was alone in the shop when he discovered a formula, Gold is soft, like a 2 on the mohs scale,..kinda like Lead, you can't make a bell out of Lead,... wanna kill resonance ,...add soft.

The perforated one is telling, If you don't add soft, punch holes in it will net you the same result. Go try to make a metal spaghetti strainer,....ring or resonate. You'll see my point.
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  #88  
Old 01-01-2020, 04:29 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
I'll guess something from the 1800's may exist but no one tmk ever pictured it.
http://www.turkishculture.org/music/...cymbal-285.htm
The earliest I've seen was engraved for presentation in April 1883. I have the images tucked away under the Type 0 page (for lack of a better place).

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/K_Zildji...tinople_Type_0
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  #89  
Old 01-01-2020, 05:31 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

There ya go, that thing is over a hundred years old and unlike a penny, has not lost it's sheen.
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  #90  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:59 PM
jda jda is offline
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Default Re: Type I,II,III old K s

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
Why does the article call it Zilcyian ?

.
Just a translation
Mel on Cymbal Talk (1985)
1:10:15
Watch Mel Tell you some things: 1:30:25


Last edited by jda; 01-01-2020 at 10:25 PM.
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