K. Zildjian Constantinople...the worlds most sought after cymbals

[oldaudio]

Originally Posted by Drumaholic

The former cymbal player from the Boston Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra playing a pair of 20" Constantinople K Zildjian cymbals bearing the Constantinople K. type zero trademark. That would mean that the date of manufacture for these would be from anywhere from 1865 to about 1912.

A pair of cymbals like these today would be essentially priceless. But certainly $10,000 or more would not be out of the question.

Drumaholic: Where are you getting this info as to the value of these? Looking on this forum and the internet in general, I see wildly varying prices and info regarding these old K. Zildjian Constantinople cymbals. Can you point me to some site that has more definitive information?
Thanks

[Drumaholic]

Originally Posted by oldaudio

Drumaholic: Where are you getting this info as to the value of these? Looking on this forum and the internet in general, I see wildly varying prices and info regarding these old K. Zildjian Constantinople cymbals. Can you point me to some site that has more definitive information?
Thanks

Unfortunately there are not sites with that type of information. But the value of these cymbals depends greatly on size. You'll find 14" and 15" quite often and these don't sell for all that much. But one you start getting into larger sizes, the value shoots up astronomically. Just to give you an idea of their relative rarity, I have never see a pair of 18's, 19's, 20's or 22's offered up for sale on eBay in the last 10n years. But like I said you can see theses cymbal in the smaller sizes fairly frequently.

[oldaudio]

Originally Posted by Drumaholic

Unfortunately there are not sites with that type of information...

Well, we should start one!
Most of the "vintage" K Constantinoples' I see out there are the later American or Canadian made versions after the brand name was bought by the A. Zildjan company in 1975. I don't see much info at all about the originals. I did find that K Zildjan was forced to stop branding their cymbals with the name "Constantinople" around 1923 by the Turkish government. This would have been at the end of the Ottoman empire. The name of the city was changed to Istanbul around 1930. I don't find much info on Kerpoe Zildjan, other than what's on the Zildjan site.

Thanks

[Drumaholic]

Originally Posted by oldaudio

I did find that K Zildjan was forced to stop branding their cymbals with the name "Constantinople" around 1923 by the Turkish government. This would have been at the end of the Ottoman empire. The name of the city was changed to Istanbul around 1930. Thanks

I was just curious to know where you found that information. Although the date when the city name was changed is correct, the date for the name change on the cymbals does not coincide with that.

[oldaudio]

Drumaholic: To be honest, I've visited about a zillion websites in the last week or so looking for info on these older Vintage K's. I don' t remember which one I got that info from. If I run across it again, I'll post it.
Thanks, Mike

And...here it is...from funtrivia site: you can click on the link and get all their info on Zildjan.

Why did the firm K. Zildjian Constantinople change its name in 1923?
Question #107541. Asked by BRY2K.

The name change occurred because of the change of name from Constantinople to Istanbul:

"The cymbals were called K. Zildjian Constantinople, but in 1923 the Turkish Republic was established and the name of Constantinople was officially changed to Istanbul, resulting in the change of the name to K. Zildjian Istanbul."

From:
http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/k/k._zildjian.htm

Jul 30 09, 8:59 PM

[Drumaholic]

Originally Posted by oldaudio

Drumaholic: To be honest, I've visited about a zillion websites in the last week or so looking for info on these older Vintage K's. I don' t remember which one I got that info from. If I run across it again, I'll post it.
Thanks, Mike

And...here it is...from funtrivia site: you can click on the link and get all their info on Zildjan.

Why did the firm K. Zildjian Constantinople change its name in 1923?
Question #107541. Asked by BRY2K.

The name change occurred because of the change of name from Constantinople to Istanbul:

"The cymbals were called K. Zildjian Constantinople, but in 1923 the Turkish Republic was established and the name of Constantinople was officially changed to Istanbul, resulting in the change of the name to K. Zildjian Istanbul."

From:
http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/k/k._zildjian.htm

Jul 30 09, 8:59 PM

The idea that K. Zildjian changed the name on their trademark from Constantinople to Istanbul at the very same time that Turkey made that change is a commonly held misconception. But as far as the cymbals are concerned, that change occurred somewherein the period of roughly 1939 to 1940.

[oldaudio]

The info contained in the link states that K. Zildjan
was told to do this ( name change ) at the request of
the new government. This would have been around
1923-24. Is it possible that there was a lapse from
the dropping of the "Constantinople" designation
around that time, until the "Istanbul" mark was added?

I think the city name of Istanbul wasn't adopted by the
new government until 1930. So, it would stand to reason
that, as you state, the "Istanbul" mark would have
been added sometime after that.

Possibly, in the intervening years, there wa no city
name on the cymbals.

[Drumaholic]

Originally Posted by oldaudio

The info contained in the link states that K. Zildjan
was told to do this ( name change ) at the request of
the new government. This would have been around
1923-24. Is it possible that there was a lapse from
the dropping of the "Constantinople" designation
around that time, until the "Istanbul" mark was added?

I think the city name of Istanbul wasn't adopted by the
new government until 1930. So, it would stand to reason
that, as you state, the "Istanbul" mark would have
been added sometime after that.

Possibly, in the intervening years, there wa no city
name on the cymbals.

Firstly, this "article" that you refer to is on a site called "all experts". That means that anybody can contribute information, whether or not they know what they're talking about. It would be better entitled "all amateurs" since it's rife with inaccuracies and outright falsehoods.

K. Zildjian a line of cymbals in Zildjian's current product range and formerly a separate company that rivaled the American Avedis Zildjian Company. The K. Zildjian Company was started by Kerope Zilcan in Constantinople, Turkey after Avedis Zildjian III left to make cymbals in America. The cymbals were called K. Zildjian Constantinople, but in 1923 the Turkish Republic was established and the name of Constantinople was officially changed to Istanbul, resulting in the change of the name to K. Zildjian Istanbul. Around 1926, Aram Zildjian signed an exclusive American distribution agreement for K. Zildjian cymbals with Fred Gretsch Co.

Second, I see nowhere that as you state:

states that K. Zildjan
was told to do this ( name change ) at the request of
the new government.

But the fact that this is not found here is probably a moot point considering that the article itself is seriously flawed anyway.


Thirdly, this one sentence alone should tell you something about how reliable this source is:

The K. Zildjian Company was started by Kerope Zilcan in Constantinople, Turkey after Avedis Zildjian III left to make cymbals in America.

Even most non-experts are aware that the K. Zildjian company was founded long before the Avedis Zildjian company ever was. The Avedis Zildjian Co. was founded in 1929, and the K. Zildjian Co. in 1623. The article states that the K. Zildjian Co. was founded by Kerope Zildjian. In fact it was not. The K. Zildjian Co. was founded by Avedis III. Kerope came about 300 years later.

You would do well to completely forget everything that you read in that article.

[jeremybranson]

I have to agree with Drumaholic,

The website "All Experts" is a total load of BS. I have no idea what "experts" are manning the station there, but for $15 anyone can buy a website and call it whatever they want.

Last year I was picking out some cymbals at the factory and was asking Paul (one of the head-honcho sound gurus) about the varying stamps on old Ks. Paul and Leon are the two main testers and developers and they are both encyclopedias of cymbal knowledge.

Anyway, both Paul, Leon and Craigie explained that Constantinople was unofficially called Istanbul in the public vernacular way before 1929 - actually that name dates back a few hundred years. From what I understand, the name "Istanbul" was chosen to be the official name by the Republic of Turkey mostly for postal and shipping reasons, as well as cultural dominance over the Armenian population (there had been assassination attempts on the Sultan, and changing the cultural language was considered a strategy in winning over hearts and minds of the populace).

. . . Drumaholic would be a much better person to date the stamps, and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that if the cymbal says "Constantinople" on the stamp it's from 1929/1930 or before. (This does not include the A. Constantinople series that were made in the US during the 70s/80s).

*Disclaimer* - None of this information should be considered 'official' by any means. I mean, come on . . . I'm just a drummer. I hit stuff for a living.

[Drumaholic]

Originally Posted by jeremybranson

. . . Drumaholic would be a much better person to date the stamps, and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that if the cymbal says "Constantinople" on the stamp it's from 1929/1930 or before.

It actually applies to all K's made before about 1939 to 1940 except those called the type zero which had no English in the trademark at all, but just Arabic script. Those are from about WWI and earlier.

Several other companies whose cymbals were not even made in Turkey were also using Constantinople in their trademarks, in some cases all the way into the 1950's. The UFIP stencil brand that went by the name of Zeltian is one example. Zildjian's earliest Zilco's are another, and Aram's A. Zildjian & Cie. is yet another example.