Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

[jazzbo]

At 1030 and 1200 they are just a tiny bit heavy for my requirements . I didn't ask the seller ( 2nd hand shop chain with stores all over Japan ) the weights before bidding as I discovered them at the last second . I ( wrongly ) assumed they would be the early 60's lighter ones . So , I'll try to flip them for what I paid , but would like to know exactly what I have ( if that is possible given all the conflicting info out there re: stamps , etc...) before listing them on auction .

[zenstat]

That's a shame. I did the same thing with mine. I figured they would be at about the same weights that are often mentioned for the early ones. So I grabbed them with a BIN. And when they arrived mine turned out to be 975/1300g. Which is what got me interested in actually testing the theory that the early ones were always lighter than the later ones.

Prior to getting these New Beats, I had a pair of Armand hats which were 905/1250g. They were a bit too bright for my tastes, which is why I moved them on and tried the early ones. In the meantime I've invested in a pair of 50s flange hats (top and bottom both 740g) and it turns out that was what I was after.

But also of interest to this whole question is the variation I've recorded in brand new Armands for sale (thus you can be sure they are true factory pairs):

1012/1158g
1004/1262g
1020/1300g
842/1350g
1005/1267g
911/1252g
937/1250g

The Armands are now discontinued, since the 2013 rework of the A series. But when they were in production they were targeting the same thing: 60s New Beats. And lookie lookie at that variation. That's another reason that I'm not put off by the variation we're seeing in 1960s New Beats (if they are all genuine 1960s New Beats). I see the same level of variation happening in both cases.

None of which helps you get the ones you are after. Or re-sell the ones you bought. Sorry about that.

[jazzbo]

They were only $ 130 + $ 10 postage from Osaka so I'm pretty confident I can recoup that . Just wondering if I'll ever know for sure exactly what I've got ! I don't want to unknowingly misrepresent the cymbals as late 60's or even early 70's . Just not sure at this point .

[Magnus_N]

Originally Posted by zenstat

Thanks for joining in Magnus.

If you are going to rule out Jazzbo's pair from being first generation then you are going to have to rule mine out as well. [...] Mine are a little heavier at 975/1300g [...]

Thanks for welcoming me to the discussion, Steve.

Although your top hat is a little heavyish, I would not rule it out at all. The weight difference between top and bottom is 325 grams, thus quite substantial. The weight difference between Jazzbo's 1030 top and 1200 bottom is only 170 grams. That was the only reason for my guess. Perhaps it is a mismatched 1960s pair, as someone already suggested above.

Originally Posted by zenstat

Note that I don't hold to the idea that you can use how clean or unused a cymbal appears as a key deciding factor on age. Periodically I see photos [...] of absolutely mint cymbals from the Trans stamp period onwards. [...]

I don't hold to that idea either, that would be silly. I have a first stamp A Zildjian that is shiny as **** because someone buffed it, and I am certain some of my old As would come out mintish if polished. But I've never seen a 1960s New Beat hat that didn't look well worn. I agree that this is a very weak argument, but I have the - probably unfounded - impression that 1960s NB hihats don't age well, perhaps due to lathing, hammering, bronze etc.

At least my 1960s NBs do look very very worn. Perhaps I should try giving them a shine...

/Magnus

[jazzbo]

Originally Posted by zenstat

How do they sound?

On second thought , I might keep them and see if I can mix and match with some other cymbals I now possess . Looking for some new HH sounds .

Right now I have :

A. Zil Newbeat top 1020g
A. Zil Newbeat bot. 1200g
Masterwork Jazzmaster top 840g
Masterwork Jazzmaster bot. 956g
Bosphorus Stanton Moore Fat Hat top 890g
Bosphorus Stanton Moore Fat Hat bot. 1094
Paiste 602 ( all Paistes vintage ) bottom 900g
Paiste 602 Sound Edge bottom 990
Paiste 602 950g

So plenty of mixing/matching fun in my future . Let you know what I come up with . I'm not overly fond of the Stanton Moore hats but for jazz they work ok .

[zenstat]

Originally Posted by jaghog

My thoughts from memory are all ink stamps were from late 60's on maybe 70's on to best of my recollection I have alwYs know about the heavy bottom hats as I have always been pairing them up that way to me some of the best sounding hats ...

Finally got a photo thanks to JPTrickster. A pre trans stamp cymbal with ink designation. This is just to show that ink on Avedis cymbals goes back into the 1940s and perhaps earlier



It just isn't usually preserved because of cleaning and polishing. He has quite a few New Old Stock cymbals stored in the dark in a controlled atmosphere. We used to think he had a time machine. In addition to BOUNCE I've seen MEDIUM, PAPER THIIN, THIN.

[jazzbo]

Originally Posted by zenstat

That's a shame. I did the same thing with mine. I figured they would be at about the same weights that are often mentioned for the early ones. So I grabbed them with a BIN. And when they arrived mine turned out to be 975/1300g. Which is what got me interested in actually testing the theory that the early ones were always lighter than the later ones.

Prior to getting these New Beats, I had a pair of Armand hats which were 905/1250g. They were a bit too bright for my tastes, which is why I moved them on and tried the early ones. In the meantime I've invested in a pair of 50s flange hats (top and bottom both 740g) and it turns out that was what I was after.

But also of interest to this whole question is the variation I've recorded in brand new Armands for sale (thus you can be sure they are true factory pairs):

1012/1158g
1004/1262g
1020/1300g
842/1350g
1005/1267g
911/1252g
937/1250g

The Armands are now discontinued, since the 2013 rework of the A series. But when they were in production they were targeting the same thing: 60s New Beats. And lookie lookie at that variation. That's another reason that I'm not put off by the variation we're seeing in 1960s New Beats (if they are all genuine 1960s New Beats). I see the same level of variation happening in both cases.

None of which helps you get the ones you are after. Or re-sell the ones you bought. Sorry about that.

Just to let you know that I sold that pair of New Beats ( for a small profit actually ) but low and behold the same recycle chain shop I got them from had another auction for a 5 cymbal set inc. a pair of 60's New Beats and I won it . I got a Paiste 20" Dixie Crash/Ride , 16" Paiste Dixie Medium / Thin , 60's A. Zil 18" thin crash and the New Beats all for just under $ 200 . These hats weigh in at 750 top and 1090 bottom and sound fantastic ! Definitely keepers . The crash and Dixies I'll most likely sell . So , needless to say , I am a happy camper .

Sound almost indentical to these :

Zildjian 14" A vintage New Beat hihats 840/1030 gr 60's - YouTube

[fatchoppers]

Originally Posted by jazzbo

Here is a link to the auction ...Stamps are straight . http://page17.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/j...ion/v359387024

how do you read that and convert the cash to US dollars