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  #11  
Old 08-01-2014, 11:35 PM
GWBasley GWBasley is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

After a close inspection and applying some of the criteria mentioned here , my Quick Beats have ghost evidence of:
1. curved "Top Quick Beat Hi Hat ink stamp
2. Avedis Zildjian solid stamp
both on the top surface
and
3. a laser etched A. Zildjian, made in USA stamp with the # if 9867-012
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  #12  
Old 08-02-2014, 02:52 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

Laser serial numbers began in 1994. IF is 1996:

ID - 1994
IE - 1995
IF - 1996
IG - 1997
IH - 1998 (K Cons start)
II - 1999
JJ - 2000 (& CIE Vintage start)
JA - 2001
JB - 2002
JC - 2003
JD - 2004
JE - 2005
JF - 2006
JG - 2007 (Armands in, & CIE Vintage out)
JH - 2008
JI - 2009
AJ - 2010 (& CIE Vintage rarities year)
AA - 2011
AB - 2012
AC - 2013 (Armands out except BB, redesigned A line)
AD - 2014 (Kerope line)
AE - 2015
AF - 2016
AG - 2017
AH - 2018
AI - 2019
BJ - 2020
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  #13  
Old 08-02-2014, 04:16 AM
WALSTIB WALSTIB is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

i have a pair of 13" NEW BEAT First era ink: (just straight BOTTOM HI-HAT NEW BEAT)
the bottom weight is 1030g and the top is 690g

I have an other 14" Zildjian (60" stamp , no ink) bottom 1235g, top 775g with nothing wrote.
My reflections are: was the weigth random? When was assembly a pair of HH ? at the end of the processus? Or by the artisan himself.
I have a pair of (10yo) 13" Bosphorus and both are signed by the maker with the weight.

I could be a gold mine to find and interview people who worked at the Zildjian company to learn more.
But, perhaps, there is a good book for thoses questions.
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STAR WMP 22-13-16-cc14 (inside grey finish)
STAR Gold Flame 22-13-16-cc14
STAR WMP 22-13-16 (with inside rings)
HOSHINO red pearl 22-13-16-cc14
ASBA Stainless Steel 24-13-13-16
ASBA Stainless Steel 24-13-18
LUDWIG Black oyster (ringo!) 1968
LUDWIG Stainless Steel 1976 22-12-13-16

Zildjian, Bosphorus, Ufip, Tosco

and few more...
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  #14  
Old 08-02-2014, 05:43 AM
jazzbo jazzbo is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

A host of tiny pics ...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

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ID:	73865  
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1963 Gretsch Progressive Jazz Champagne Sparkle
1967 Ludwig Super Classic Oyster Blue Pearl
Yamaha Birch Custom Absolute Burgundy Spkl. bop
etc...
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  #15  
Old 08-02-2014, 11:04 AM
GWBasley GWBasley is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

After closer examination, I'm sure that the Quick Beats I mentioned are much later. The stamp is a "laser" etching, The ink is/was curved and on the outside (including the cymbal size 14"), and the Zildjian ink appears to have been solid. These are heavy cymbals...the top is 1300g and the bottom is 1000g. In fact, I presently have the 1000g on top, paired with an 850g bottom.

added: 1996...way off from what I originally thought.

Last edited by GWBasley; 08-02-2014 at 11:20 AM.
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  #16  
Old 08-02-2014, 12:26 PM
Rotarded Rotarded is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

For reference purposes I include the weights on my hats that were purchased by the original owner in 1964, with the Downbeat:

14" 60's Vintage A, Zildjian Hat Top 806 grams
14" 60's Vintage A. Zildjian Hat Bottom 845 grams
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1964 Ludwig Downbeat Black Diamond Pearl
1976 Ludwig Stainless Steel "Bop" (12,14,18)
DW Performance Series Pewter Sparkle
Zildjians

Last edited by Rotarded; 08-02-2014 at 12:29 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-02-2014, 07:40 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WALSTIB View Post
i have a pair of 13" NEW BEAT First era ink: (just straight BOTTOM HI-HAT NEW BEAT)
the bottom weight is 1030g and the top is 690g

I have an other 14" Zildjian (60" stamp , no ink) bottom 1235g, top 775g with nothing wrote.
My reflections are: was the weigth random? When was assembly a pair of HH ? at the end of the processus? Or by the artisan himself.
I have a pair of (10yo) 13" Bosphorus and both are signed by the maker with the weight.

I could be a gold mine to find and interview people who worked at the Zildjian company to learn more.
But, perhaps, there is a good book for thoses questions.
The weights and pairings weren't random in the proper statistical sense. Once the pair was sold as a pair (1968 onwards) a light top was paired with a medium bottom after going through a selection of them. From what we know, matching was at the final step of sound testing, and matching was by ear rather than a scale. Earlier (from 1963 to 1968) you would order a special bottom hat to go with a standard top, but the pairing process was much the same.

What I've found so far is that when you actually look at the variation in 1st generation ones, then tops and bottoms can vary by 200g (tops 750 to 950, bottoms 1100 to 1300) and while on average the ratio of top to bottom is around 70% (two thirds should be 66%) there is not yet any strong correlation between top and bottom weights. Just lots of variation. There was a time in the 80s and 90s when weights were more like medium over heavy (when once they were light over medium) but there is no sort of linear progression where they got heavier every few years. And the new ones (relaunch weights and profiles at 2013) seem to be more like the older ones. Note that Paul Francis (Director of R&D at Zildjian) says that:

Quote:
This is what has been redesigned/tweaked: 13", 14" 15" New Beat Top (All New Beat Bottoms will remain the same weight and curvature as always)
So there is more than just a weight change to the top. Profile changes are in there too.

Note I'm still at the early data collection stage. One of the difficulties is that eBay sellers are happy to claim "original New Beat pair", but when the ink is gone only your hairdresser knows for sure. So I really value your weights and additional input. I'll add them to my growing data set.
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Cymbal Wiki || A one stop shop for all things cymbal
Paiste portal click here || Avedis Zildjian portal click here || K Zildjian Istanbul portal click here
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  #18  
Old 08-02-2014, 08:54 PM
jazzbo jazzbo is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

As soon as mine get here I'll weigh them and post the weights here .

As I said the ink stamps are on topside of top cymbal and bottomside of bottom cymbal . This was standard procedure in the 60's I presume .

Also , ink logos are straight not curved . Check my mini pics posted earlier .
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Yamaha Birch Custom Absolute Burgundy Spkl. bop
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  #19  
Old 08-02-2014, 09:26 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzbo View Post
As soon as mine get here I'll weigh them and post the weights here .

As I said the ink stamps are on topside of top cymbal and bottomside of bottom cymbal . This was standard procedure in the 60's I presume .

Also , ink logos are straight not curved . Check my mini pics posted earlier .
Yes, yours with the top ink have changed the definition of the 1st gen to include the ink on top. For comparison, mine only have the ink on the bottom hat and are 975g over 1300g (seen as at the heavier end of the range given they show 1st gen ink). But no ink on the top. If it was ever there it is long gone by cleaning:





I have no idea of having the top stamped or not represents
  • differential survival (cleaning removes it)
  • chronology (top stamping happened from 1968 on)
  • regional variants (USA vs International markets)
  • something else

but we'll see what we see as more evidence comes to light.

Meanwhile, for completeness...

The 3rd gen ink is like this (on the outside of both cymbals now) with the solid ink Zildjian on both top and bottom sides of each cymbal. The model is at 12 o'clock and includes the size under the model:



This ink change isn't unique to New Beats, it's just the general progression of ink in the A series. From here on thees are the changes I know about...

Adding Avedis in smaller letters just above and to the left of the Zildjian (4th)



Adding a script A up to the left of the model (5th)



to get the ink style which lasted until the laser serials come in and make things easier to date (1994). Then the final change in 2013 saw Avedis removed from above the Zildjian, and the cursive A get bigger plus the model ink fonts changed and moved around (6th):



I haven't dated all of these ink changes properly yet, but I'm slowly working on it because there doesn't seem to be anything out there on the web which does.

Note that these generations or eras are just names I've stuck on them for the time being. They are subject to change as new info comes to hand.
__________________
"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance" (Robert R Coveyou)

Cymbal Wiki || A one stop shop for all things cymbal
Paiste portal click here || Avedis Zildjian portal click here || K Zildjian Istanbul portal click here

Last edited by zenstat; 08-02-2014 at 09:57 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-02-2014, 10:49 PM
jazzbo jazzbo is offline
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Default Re: Are these "60's "New Beat Zildjian hats ?

Ii would appear that the first generation New Beats had just an ink stamp on top of the top cymbal and one on the bottom of the bottom cymbal . This would make perfect sense , no ?
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