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  #1  
Old 12-06-2012, 05:45 PM
J!m J!m is offline
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Default new "Vintage" cycmbals...

I have always played Avedis Zildjian cymbals. I have one 22" ride that is old (mid 50's I think- hollow block stamp which was my first cymbal as a kid) that I don't really play and the rest are all ~80's vintage. (22" ping ride to 8" splash and a bunch in between!)

Anyway, I see all the hype about the K Constantinople and A. Zildjian Cie. vintage style cymbals. I also see the price tags...

Does anyone here have a taste, or perhaps 'bias' is the correct word, toward 80's A. Zildjians who could comment on these 'vintage' re-issue cymbals? The 80's cymbals I use are solid ink logo but pre-serial number.

The reason I ask, is I am thinking of getting into some K's for my old Yamaha kit, but the new and (80's vintage) used ones I have tried are rather 'gongy' sounding to me... Not at all like what I associate with older Weckl recordings with the Acoustik band... I thought they would be dry, fast and less loud than comparable diameter/thickness A's. They are just a completely different animal!

So, is it just me? Am I 'spoiled' because I gravitate toward the 80's A. Zildjians and their higher pitch and complex tones? I particularly dislike the new K Custom cymbals. They sound very bland to me... Not much for A Customs either for that matter, but in larger diameters, I think they can be quite nice. They do seem to be fragile however- or maybe it is just coincidence that I see a lot of A Customs cracked...

I can't imagine the true, fully hammered (pre-rolling) Zildjians sounded anything like these modern vintage style cymbals, but I honestly don't know myself (and don't have the extra funds to learn first hand unfortunately).

it is crazy- trying to explain the sound of ANY cymbal in words, but I think we have all heard an 80's vintage A Zildjian 16" thin crash cymbal. That is my 'key' cymbal, so if you know the sound of that, you know my standard.

Are K's just not right for me? Does that make me less cool?

Just want to get some ideas/opinions/thoughts from those members here who might have the cymbals I have and use, and would have a point of reference to describe these vintage style cymbals- or perhaps point me in a direction within the current Zildjian stable as a place to start and get my bearings at least! I don't think this old dog is interested in jumping ship to Sabian (though I realize it is not a far jump) or one of the other 'boutique' cymbal makers around these days.

Thanks in advance for reading, and trying to wrap your head around where I'm coming from!
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2012, 06:30 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

Your realization that modern Zildjians suck is just the beginning of knowledge. Now what you need is to take the next step and discover the wonderful world of vintage Zildjians....back when cymbals were cymbals, and the drummers were glad of it. Therefore go ye forth and increase your knowledge.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:51 PM
mlayton mlayton is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

weight also makes a big difference in sound too. any idea what your 50's hollow block weighs in comparison to your newer stuff? ive never owned a hollow block that i didnt enjoy in one way or another. newer cymbals, thats a whole other story. i just find it hard to go wrong with old a's. there are plenty around and can usually be had at a great price.

mike
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:04 PM
J!m J!m is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumaholic View Post
Your realization that modern Zildjians suck is just the beginning of knowledge. Now what you need is to take the next step and discover the wonderful world of vintage Zildjians....back when cymbals were cymbals, and the drummers were glad of it. Therefore go ye forth and increase your knowledge.
Well, that isn't exactly what I said, or, if I did, not what I meant... In fact many might argue the 80's cymbals I favor now are "modern"; and that's fine with me.

I have no issue with paying for a cymbal; however the price of admission into the true vintage realm is fairly steep. Again, it's not like buying a vintage watch for example where you know all about it and the fair market, and can tell a deal from a rip-off. Cymbals are so complex, what you may love, I may hate.

A friend of mine bought a second hand K Con and hated it at first. Then I told him to clean it- based on what he had, and what he wanted, it needed to open up more. Sure enough, a serious cleaning and he is enjoying the cymbal. He did also try a true vintage K a while back, and has been bitten by the bug... I have not heard that cymbal live yet- just over the phone. I do want to try it in person.

I digress, but the thing is, ALL the new cymbals can't suck; just as all the new cymbals can't be great. Based on my proximity, do you think I should go to Zildjian and try stuff there?
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Cobalt Blue Yamaha Recording Custom 20b-22b-8-10-12-13-15-16f-18f
Red Ripple '70's Yamaha D-20 20b-12-14f
Piano Black Yamaha Recording Custom Be-Bop kit 18b-10-14f
Snares:
Yamaha COS SDM5; Yamaha Cobalt Blue RC 5-1/2x14; Gretsch round badge WMP; 1972 Ludwig Acrolite; 1978 Ludwig Super Sensitive; Cobalt Blue one-off Montineri; Yamaha Oak (6X13!); DW collectors 5-1/2X14 maple; cheap 3.5X13 brass piccolo
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  #5  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:12 PM
J!m J!m is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlayton View Post
weight also makes a big difference in sound too. any idea what your 50's hollow block weighs in comparison to your newer stuff? ive never owned a hollow block that i didnt enjoy in one way or another. newer cymbals, thats a whole other story. i just find it hard to go wrong with old a's. there are plenty around and can usually be had at a great price.

mike
That 22 must weigh a hundred pounds. You could get two rides out of it easily. I really don't like it's sound very much at all. It has a massive bell (that will cut through depleted uranium) and a serious bow to it. It is VERY thick. The wash is tsunami-grade. Ride it for about eight bars fine, but hen- THEN it starts to build up to the point it is just this WALL of sound

But, it has no cracks or any other issues (you'd need steel sticks to crack it I think). I tried tape on it and a host of other things over the last 33 or so years and I basically retired it one day and got a 20" ping ride, which I really love. I got a 22 recently to see how that was/is and it is an entirely different cymbal!

For what its worth to those reading this and/or commenting, I play Nylon tip sticks- always have. I like the consistency on the ride of the plastic tip. It doesn't go soft and mushy by the end of a gig.

My sticks of choice are Pro Mark 747 Nylon Oak. I played with everything from a 7A to a 1B and finally found these that suit me and any playing style that doesn't require brushes. Some may argue they are too big, but I'm proud to say I still have my first crash cymbal (that 16" thin crash) and have never cracked one.

EDIT=> In COMPARISON to my 22" ping ride, the old 22 is heavier for sure (and that big ping is no lightweight!)
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Cobalt Blue Yamaha Recording Custom 20b-22b-8-10-12-13-15-16f-18f
Red Ripple '70's Yamaha D-20 20b-12-14f
Piano Black Yamaha Recording Custom Be-Bop kit 18b-10-14f
Snares:
Yamaha COS SDM5; Yamaha Cobalt Blue RC 5-1/2x14; Gretsch round badge WMP; 1972 Ludwig Acrolite; 1978 Ludwig Super Sensitive; Cobalt Blue one-off Montineri; Yamaha Oak (6X13!); DW collectors 5-1/2X14 maple; cheap 3.5X13 brass piccolo
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  #6  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:13 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

Quote:
Originally Posted by J!m View Post
Well, that isn't exactly what I said, or, if I did, not what I meant... In fact many might argue the 80's cymbals I favor now are "modern.....
Yes, and that's just what I'm saying too. Your 80's cymbals are "modern".....

So what do you want to do now? Persue even more modern cymbals?

Last edited by Drumaholic; 12-06-2012 at 09:20 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:20 PM
J!m J!m is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

Interesting point- Yes, if they have something I don't have with my A's.

Just because they are new does not automatically make them bad...

I wanted to try K's, and what I have tried (second handers in music stores) I have not been 'moved' by.

However, I WAS moved by the K 'trash smash' I tried. A bit pricey for an 'effect' cymbal, but I was/am digging the sound of that. One sales guy said it's not a horrible ride either... I have not bought it, but the point is, there can be good (to my ears) sounds out there and I'm trying to broaden my horizons beyond my 'comfort' zone. That's all.

EDIT=> Actually, I was just thinking- are there guys near me who have old Zildjians and/or new "vintage-style" K's/A's I could try some time? I could bring some of my cymbals along and get a better idea... I just don't know who is near me, and if they'd be accommodating.
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Cobalt Blue Yamaha Recording Custom 20b-22b-8-10-12-13-15-16f-18f
Red Ripple '70's Yamaha D-20 20b-12-14f
Piano Black Yamaha Recording Custom Be-Bop kit 18b-10-14f
Snares:
Yamaha COS SDM5; Yamaha Cobalt Blue RC 5-1/2x14; Gretsch round badge WMP; 1972 Ludwig Acrolite; 1978 Ludwig Super Sensitive; Cobalt Blue one-off Montineri; Yamaha Oak (6X13!); DW collectors 5-1/2X14 maple; cheap 3.5X13 brass piccolo

Last edited by J!m; 12-06-2012 at 07:24 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:58 PM
drummer123 drummer123 is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

GOOD POINT

To the person of

Drumaholic
Vintage Drum Guru Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,467

Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your realization that modern Zildjians suck is just the beginning of knowledge. Now what you need is to take the next step and discover the wonderful world of vintage Zildjians....back when cymbals were cymbals, and the drummers were glad of it. Therefore go ye forth and increase your knowledge.
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2012, 08:39 PM
SlingerLynn SlingerLynn is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

Everyone's ear for a "good" cymbal is different. So, everything I'm about to say may not help you in any way.

The only new K Zildjians I like are the occasional 18" K Custom Fast Crash, the occasional 18" K Dark Thin Crash and, like you, I like the Trash Smash...I like the trashy stuff. The reason I say "the occasional..." is because not all of them sound good. I have played 2 old 18" Ks and I've been looking for one ever since...I need to stop spending money on other things and save up for one. I do NOT like the new K Con crashes...to heavy and gongy. I do, however, own a set of 14" K Con hats that I really like (I hand-picked them from 12 different sets). Some of the K Con rides are nice, but I don't have one.

You asked about the A. Zildjian & Cie Vintage series. I own a 16" and 18" crash. They are very thin...trashy and a little dry. I don't particularly care for the rides and hats. However, this series has been discontinued, so you can't go try them out at your local shop...unless they have some left over.

I don't really care for the 80s As. That was what most of the first set of cymbals I owned were. So, again, everything I'm saying may not help you at all.

I also own a set of truly vintage cymbals: 15" old K crashes paired up as hats, trans stamp A 16" and 18" and late 50s 22" A ride. They sound good, a little heavier than I'd like, but they sound good. As was mentioned previously, weight has a good bit to do with cymbal tone, as well as many other aspects of their construction.

The best advice I can give you is look around until you find one whose sound suits you, whether modern or vintage. The vintage stuff, in a lot of cases, is less expensive - or no more expensive - than modern stuff. So, keep your eyes on feeBay and Craigslist.

I hope this rambling helps in some way...trying to form thoughts while corralling a 4 year old.

Lynn
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:32 PM
J!m J!m is offline
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Default Re: new "Vintage" cycmbals...

Thank you Lynn for not only answering, but qualifying the statements with a point of reference- the fact that you dislike the cymbals I have as a benchmark now. I appreciate that.

EDIT=> And since you dislike the 80's A's and the new vintage stuff, would you say they are comparable in any way, or rather just two different things and you like neither?

and I also agree that they can vary, and always have! The older hand hammered ones have more 'mystique' but in reality varied quite a bit because of it. I speculate this is what drove Zildjian to start rolling before hammering- to take a lot of the labor out of the process, and bring some consistency to it. But, with so much hand work (lathing was still by hand in the 80's) there was still a lot of variation for sure. Hot rolling vs. cold hammering also stresses the metal less- good for durability (less cracking- particularly around the center hole) but bad for producing complex overtones due to reducing the wildly varying internal stress levels. Then machine hammering and finally the entire process is machine done now (as far as I know) for the standard stuff.

Point: I have a 19" medium crash that I don't much care for. I threw an EFX piggyback on top and it has that trashy sound you like, but it is not my old Wuhan either. It's pretty cool, but it needs to be DAMN loud to need that much cymbal without the piggy back.

I think the best way to describe what I'm looking for is: something different from my current stable of A Zildjians. I thought K's from the same era might be a good place to start- a lot of drummers I grew up with played them, I just never considered them before. I hate the "Z" line and the crazy geometric shaped hammering. Maybe these are too radical for me? I just don't have the experience outside the cymbals I have spent decades with, and why I wanted to start this thread...
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Cobalt Blue Yamaha Recording Custom 20b-22b-8-10-12-13-15-16f-18f
Red Ripple '70's Yamaha D-20 20b-12-14f
Piano Black Yamaha Recording Custom Be-Bop kit 18b-10-14f
Snares:
Yamaha COS SDM5; Yamaha Cobalt Blue RC 5-1/2x14; Gretsch round badge WMP; 1972 Ludwig Acrolite; 1978 Ludwig Super Sensitive; Cobalt Blue one-off Montineri; Yamaha Oak (6X13!); DW collectors 5-1/2X14 maple; cheap 3.5X13 brass piccolo
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