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  #41  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:09 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumguy1988 View Post
Personally I would say these shells are legit. Doesn't RCI re-enforce the seem with a piece of Acrillic. These shells don't have that.
Fake or RCI is not the question. It is about the exact year 1976. Same as the seller Drumwacker dealt with. Where does 1976 come from?

Everybody slow down and take a deep breath and repeat after me: this is not about fake badges and RCI "Vistalite" shells. This is a discussion about whether or not there exist BO2 badges without serial numbers. If they exist can they be from later in the 1970s?

The only reason Vistalite came into it was via a link to an example which happened to be a fake Vistalite badge, and my example which happened to be a Vistalite badge. There are non Vistalite fake badges. Most Vistalites do not have fake badges. Most Ludwigs do not have fake badges. None of these facts inform the question about BO2 badges without serial numbers. As far as real Vistalites with real badges go, Rob Cook (p160) has them as 1972/3 so so there isn't anything which would be out of place for an early shell to have a BO2 badge without a serial number. No complete re-write of the timeline of badges without serial numbers is needed just because they are on Vistalites. On the other hand, patterns weren't introduced until 1975 (again p160) and that's a hint that the snare and bass with pattern C might imply that the BO2 badges sans serials are later than previously thought. So perhaps a useful diversion.
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Last edited by zenstat; 10-09-2019 at 09:53 PM.
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  #42  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:27 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

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Originally Posted by Drumwhacker View Post
KCDrumDad are you Richard/Rick?

I contacted my seller (still haven't got it yet) seems like a nice guy, he said no date stamp.

I'm thinking Zenstat's points ring true and KCDrumDad mentioned he hadn't seen one with a date stamp.

Great info all!

This is his response to me; "Hi, thanks again for your bid. I purchased the drum from the original owner about 7 years ago. He told me he purchased the drum new in 1976. I took his word for it based on the strainer, the thin hoops and the pointy badge. There is no date stamp inside the drum. He told me it the snare could have been made for an endorser. They sometimes didnít put serial numbers on the drums that an endorser would get if it was a special order from what I was told. Thatís all the information I can give you. Itís a really great drum."
So this is an example of a snare which gives us no reliable evidence that it really is 1976. No big deal in terms of buying, selling, and playing drums. Big difference in terms of looking for 1976 drums which have a BO2 badge without a serial number.

The endorser story comes up now and again as an explanation for any anomalies in drums. I have yet to see any evidence for the story when it gets trotted out by a seller. KCDrumDad (yes, Rick/Richard) has made an even stronger case for this than I have (if I remember correctly).

For those who don't happen to know, by 1976 those date stamps were long gone which is why we must rely on other things to get a specific year for a drum with a BO2 but no serial number.
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  #43  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:49 PM
Drumwhacker Drumwhacker is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

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Originally Posted by Drumguy1988 View Post
Something else to think u about. Great info Drumwhacker. I hope this is helping answer some of your question???
Yes, absolutely. This forum rocks. The more questions there are, the more I get interested.

I still have enough brain cells holding hands together to realize there are some very knowledgeable, talented folks here sharing. I appreciate that fact.

I used to play decades ago, I have a renewed interest in drums and playing at this point in my life. This forum is one of the best. If not THE best.
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  #44  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:06 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

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Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Yes the darker/lighter Olive is lighting as far as I can tell because I've got photos which show a variety of shades. That doesn't mean somebody might not be able to see a systematic difference in person if he had 25 of two types to compare. But I think OddBall seemed to leap from a sample of one or two to generalizing to all BO badges in the way he wrote his post.

Since commenting further, Oddball seems to mean a way to tell 80s from 70s badges (since he speaks of "after the 70s") although even that isn't clear. I don't think he meant fake vs real badges. Perhaps he meant b-stock from 70s? Hard to say given the lack of clarity.
I've got pics too. You will never convince me this is a lighting difference.

I was wrong about dating between two decades because I found them on 70's vistalites too. So I throw that out the window.
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  #45  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:26 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

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Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
I've got pics too. You will never convince me this is a lighting difference.

I was wrong about dating between two decades because I found them on 70's vistalites too. So I throw that out the window.
Aren't those two badges from approx the same serial number range? If so, what you have demonstrated is variation rather than chronology. Once you have 25 or so of each color and document that the serial numbers are from different ranges then it might be chronology. But don't worry, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. And you don't need to convince me of anything either. We're all good.
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Last edited by zenstat; 10-10-2019 at 03:51 PM.
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  #46  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:30 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Side by side, same lighting, note the tint differences.
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  #47  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:36 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Also note the alignment of the scratch patches too. The fake didn't quite get the tint correct from the darker original.
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  #48  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:41 AM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

You can rely on boarder mistake, but not alignment.
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  #49  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:38 PM
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

[QUOTE=zenstat;Everybody slow down and take a deep breath and repeat after me: this is not about fake badges and RCI "Vistalite" shells. This is a discussion about whether or not there exist BO2 badges without serial numbers. If they exist can they be from later in the 1970's.

There seems to be evidence that blank BO2 badges do exist. Rick Gier has one pictured in his book on page 18 and claims to have recorded at least 35 examples. When and/or how they were used is the question. Could they have been a service part?

Last edited by slingerfan; 10-10-2019 at 12:48 PM. Reason: more info
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  #50  
Old 10-10-2019, 01:36 PM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Wow, I step away from the computer for a day and miss a whole bunch of posts.

I was not suggesting that the Vistas currently on eBay are not genuine. Sorry for confusing the issue. I am suggesting that when what I call a "blank BO2 badge" (Blue/Olive badge with no serial number and with the circle R) shows up, it could be either a legitimate original badge or it could be a more recent reproduction. Reproduction badges and badges which are legitimate but not original to their drums tend to cloud up the analysis. That is why I always want to separate out reproductions and switched badges as a first step.

I distinguish between the earlier blank BO1 badge (Blue/Olive badge with no serial number and without the circle R) and the BO2 badge. It seems unlikely that the blank BO2 badge would date to 1970 (when many blank BO1 badges are documented) because the circle R indicator is not seen on BO badges with lower serial numbers. There is a general relationship between date and serial number which indicates that BO1 badges were used before BO2 badges. This same logic is extended to badges without serial numbers. It is assumed that the blank BO1 badges are older than the blank BO2 badges

Now determining exactly when legitimate blank BO2 badges were used is difficult. They obviously do not have serial numbers to help us and the drums sporting them have not had date stamps. That leaves us with evaluation of the physical characteristics.

I refrain from speculating about why blank BO1 and blank BO2 badges exist or were used. There are many theories - endorser drums, B Stock, prototypes, service parts (which is a new one to me) ,etc... I do not have the answer to why. I am just trying to determine the when. Perhaps if we can answer the when, we can move toward answering the why.

Rick
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www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com

Last edited by KCDrumDad; 10-10-2019 at 02:10 PM. Reason: clarification
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