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  #1  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:40 PM
Drumwhacker Drumwhacker is offline
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Default Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Hello all!

This morning I bought a Ludwig LM402 Supraphonic off of Ebay.

The seller listed it as a 1976. It has a no serial number, blue and olive badge.

I know Ludwig serial numbers are all over the place and it's darn near impossible to really pinpoint date of manufacture.

However, the info I see make reference to these badges only on 1970-1971, drums and references of these badges only on 1971-1972 drums.

Then I read these badges were put on 'prototype' drums but no one can spot any differences in the drums compared to numbered drums.

I also read they may have been 'pre-production' badges.

Anyone have anything to add as far what year(s) drums had the non numbered B/O badge? Thanks!
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:40 PM
Drumguy1988 Drumguy1988 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumwhacker View Post
Hello all!

This morning I bought a Ludwig LM402 Supraphonic off of Ebay.

The seller listed it as a 1976. It has a no serial number, blue and olive badge.

I know Ludwig serial numbers are all over the place and it's darn near impossible to really pinpoint date of manufacture.

However, the info I see make reference to these badges only on 1970-1971, drums and references of these badges only on 1971-1972 drums.

Then I read these badges were put on 'prototype' drums but no one can spot any differences in the drums compared to numbered drums.

I also read they may have been 'pre-production' badges.

Anyone have anything to add as far what year(s) drums had the non numbered B/O badge? Thanks!

I could be completely wrong about this but I have a hunch that some B/O Badges came out on drums in the late 70's without serial #'s just as they did in the early 70's.

Does this Badge have the Little registered circle R over top of the G??
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  #3  
Old 10-05-2019, 01:45 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

I'll add that what you read on the interwebs was all made obsolete by Rick Gier's 2013 book "Serial Number Based Dating Guides for Vintage Ludwig Drums". Published by Rebeats. Alas, the interwebs have not caught up.

Ludwig serial numbers aren't all over the place. They are patterned and using a large sample and proper analysis you can see the pattern. What you can't do is get much closer than 6 months in time given the variability.

Rick identified 4 distinct types of Blue Olive badge. A photo of yours would tell us which one it is. That's what is behind the question about the little registered trademark symbol . Or you could include the item number (or a link to the auction) and we can check ourselves. There are a number of other attributes which might help check that the 1976 year is consistent with how the snare is outfitted.

B/O badges without serial numbers appear from mid 1969 to the end of 1971 in Rick's graph I've got in front of me. That is a long way from 1976. Then there are the issues of cut badges and B-stock. All of which might be solved by having a look at yours. I can't rule out a Supraphonic produced in 1976 having a non serial number badge (never say never with Ludwig) but it would be exceedingly unusual.
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Last edited by zenstat; 10-05-2019 at 01:49 AM. Reason: included after google stopped doing a go slow
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Old 10-05-2019, 06:38 PM
Drumguy1988 Drumguy1988 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
I'll add that what you read on the interwebs was all made obsolete by Rick Gier's 2013 book "Serial Number Based Dating Guides for Vintage Ludwig Drums". Published by Rebeats. Alas, the interwebs have not caught up.

Ludwig serial numbers aren't all over the place. They are patterned and using a large sample and proper analysis you can see the pattern. What you can't do is get much closer than 6 months in time given the variability.

Rick identified 4 distinct types of Blue Olive badge. A photo of yours would tell us which one it is. That's what is behind the question about the little registered trademark symbol . Or you could include the item number (or a link to the auction) and we can check ourselves. There are a number of other attributes which might help check that the 1976 year is consistent with how the snare is outfitted.

B/O badges without serial numbers appear from mid 1969 to the end of 1971 in Rick's graph I've got in front of me. That is a long way from 1976. Then there are the issues of cut badges and B-stock. All of which might be solved by having a look at yours. I can't rule out a Supraphonic produced in 1976 having a non serial number badge (never say never with Ludwig) but it would be exceedingly unusual.
I have Richards book too. Excellent read. I mentioned the Registered R cause in Ricks book he says that it started appearing on badges around serial # 950XXXX which I thought was well after the no serial # badges. That's what made me think there was a second batch of badges released with no #'s in the later 70's.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:48 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

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Originally Posted by Drumguy1988 View Post
I have Richards book too. Excellent read. I mentioned the Registered R cause in Ricks book he says that it started appearing on badges around serial # 950XXXX which I thought was well after the no serial # badges. That's what made me think there was a second batch of badges released with no #'s in the later 70's.
If there is an that would be informative about the year. I don't remember any blank serial numbers on the badges but I stopped paying close attention once I passed all my data over to Rick for use in his book. We'll have to see if Rick checks in on this thread. Or if we get a link to the item in question that would help.
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:22 PM
Drumguy1988 Drumguy1988 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
If there is an that would be informative about the year. I don't remember any blank serial numbers on the badges but I stopped paying close attention once I passed all my data over to Rick for use in his book. We'll have to see if Rick checks in on this thread. Or if we get a link to the item in question that would help.
I have a Badge with no serial # with the Registered R in it on my Floor Tom.
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Old 10-05-2019, 10:02 PM
Drumguy1988 Drumguy1988 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Here's the badge. No serial #. Registered R. It's not a reproduction either.

It's not the original badge that was on my Floor Tom. There were no badges on the kit when I got it so I put what ever I could find on it.
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  #8  
Old 10-06-2019, 02:26 PM
Drumwhacker Drumwhacker is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Yes!

I saw some of Rick Giers info online so I know there is a very good point of reference, just not exact. I'm buying that book, sounds like a good one.

Also I've read about practices (or lack of) at the factory that explains a lot about dating (or lack of).

It does have the "R" I believe I paid a little more than I should have, but I wanted the drum!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Lud...rdt=true&rt=nc

Last edited by Drumwhacker; 10-06-2019 at 02:33 PM.
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2019, 02:52 PM
Drumwhacker Drumwhacker is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Just bought Rick Gier's book, thanks for the info!
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  #10  
Old 10-06-2019, 06:22 PM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

That is a very clean looking drum.

I have recorded at least 35 instances of drums with no serial numbers on the version of the badge with the "circle R" trademark symbol. None of these was reported to have a date stamp, so it is difficult to pinpoint when they were used. The throw on the drum you just purchased did not appear until about 1973, so that should help to narrow it down a bit. The style of tone control (mounting bolt below the adjusting screw) was in use from about 1968 through much of the 1970s, and was replaced with a version with the mount hole above the adjusting screw, but I have not yet developed an estimate for when that occurred.

Thanks for buying the book. Let me know if you have questions once you have read it.
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Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com

Last edited by KCDrumDad; 10-16-2019 at 12:08 PM. Reason: typo
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