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  #31  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:49 PM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

I could (probably more than likely) am incorrect &wrong,
As you commented on, mentioned, said, stated " produce a cymbal with the serial number 1971 or 1 ",
Which will be actually 1981,
As you have far more experience in researching Paiste serial numbers than I have,
I've only ever gone on details, info from both Cymbalholic &Paiste-only,
I'm /I was certain &sure Paiste themselves put history information regarding: about serial number dating on there website &literature
I apologize,
Thank you for your information,
I now have to go through my "Bonham" Giant Best, 602&2002,
To check years!.
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  #32  
Old 08-10-2019, 06:14 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddBall View Post
Well all one needs to do is produce a 1971 serial number.
The evidence I'd like to see is a Giant Beat with a 6 digit serial number starting with a 1. Giant Beats were produced 1967-1974 so there shouldn't be a possibility of 1 being 1981 as there is with other Series like 2002 and 602. They weren't making them. Yes Giant Beats were reintroduced in 2005, but those serial numbers are distinct (8 digits).

But I would still like to discover more than one Giant Beat with a leading digit 1. When you start recording thousands of cymbals you do come across the occasional one off anomaly, and I wouldn't want to change the first year of serial numbers on the basis of just a one off anomaly. There also seem to be production batches where some models are produced in one year and then not for a year or two. We're still working on that as well.

Here is an example of a one off anomaly from the 602 series (22" Dark Ride) in a wiki entry which is informed by more detailed analysis of serial numbers and trademarks and price lists.

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Paiste_F...2%22_Dark_Ride

The wiki is improved by more evidence so do keep an eye out for us.
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  #33  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:07 AM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Hi Adrian,

6 digit serial numbers were applied from 1970 - 1995. From 1996 to date, 8 digit serial numbers are applied.

Best regards,
From Paiste themselves.
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  #34  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:07 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussievintagedrumuser View Post
Hi Adrian,

6 digit serial numbers were applied from 1970 - 1995. From 1996 to date, 8 digit serial numbers are applied.

Best regards,
From Paiste themselves.
If they said "in the 1970s" or "around 1970" I could agree. If they said "some time during 1971" I could agree pending a bit more evidence. We are really just talking about a few months when we are talking end of 1971 versus early 1972.

At the other end of the range, Paiste are also very specific that 6 digit serials only went to 1995 and from 1996 they were 8. Here is my Traditionals Medium Light Hat bottom with a 6 digit serial number from 1997. This is paired with the top with a 1997 8 digit serial number 9704483. There are other examples like this which show that the 1995 6 digit versus 1996 8 digit story is not consistent with the serial numbers which are out there.



The Sound Creation series shows a similar pattern based on serial numbers from lots of cymbals. The simplified story is that they started in 1978 and lasted until 1991. The Early ink style are 1978 to 1981, but there is just one 1977 pair of 14" Dark Hats SE, and one 1982 18" Dark Crash. The late ink style are 1981 to 1988 but for one 1989 18" Dark Crash and one 1990 22" Dark Ride. So there is once again a little overlap due to mid year changeover, and also one lone 1977 cymbal. This is the pattern one expects to see when production is started late in the year before release in order to build up stock.

And once again at the other end of the time line there is a one off 602 Dark Ride from 1981 with serial PAISTE 602 142560.



Officially, 602 Dark Ride production ended in 1977, and the 602 version was replaced by the Sound Creation one in 1978. Except for this one. Here is what Paiste what Christian Wentzel from Paiste has to say about this specific ride:

"this cymbal is a Sound Creation Dark Ride from 1971. The “Paiste” logo is a hand stamp, in 1981 logos were silk-screened. The “Paiste 602” stamp is a reference to the alloy. Sound Creation was not a series in today’s sense, but only single models"

Which shows the helpful Paiste person has overlooked the prefix part of the serial number which makes it a standard 1981 602 series serial number. The other attributes fit 1981 as well (cusp of blue label 602s) because once again, the change happened part way through 1981 not on January 1st. Until I get evidence that the customer service people at Paiste understand the way their serial prefixes work, I'm still concerned that they have been telling people with 1981 cymbals they have 1971 cymbals. Yes there is a 602 Dark Ride from 1971 mentioned in Jon Heisman's biography

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Paiste_F...2%22_Dark_Ride

but the prefix on the serial number (and other attributes) says this isn't one of those very early ones. Of course if you ignore the prefix -- oh look another serial which would be misunderstood as 1971. It may even be that people who ask Paiste don't mention the prefix themselves and don't supply a photo showing it.

This is what you find when you collect and analyze enough examples. Reality is more subtle and nuanced. Changes happen mid year and not usually on the first year of the decade. I'd say "never happen on the first year of the decade" but I haven't got the strong evidence to support that.

I'll add your new contribution to my collection of answers from Paiste which are inconsistent with the evidence we have. I'm still working on my complete analysis of all the 602 serial numbers I've got and how they inform the late 1971 vs early 1972 question among other things. Meanwhile I've heard (but again not seen photos) about 2002 cymbals with a leading 1 so I look forward to finding out whether those are 1981 (leading 1 but with the prefix PAISTE 2002), 1981 without a prefix but identifiable on other grounds as 1981, German ones where the leading 1 isn't the year, or a true 1971. So your help in keeping an eye out for a true 1971 2002 (or Giant Beat for the reasons I outlined in a previous post) will help. I'm more of a 602, Sound Creation, Traditionals specialist so I rely on others to help extend our knowledge of the other series.
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Last edited by zenstat; 08-14-2019 at 05:53 PM. Reason: photos inline
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  #35  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:53 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
The evidence I'd like to see is a Giant Beat with a 6 digit serial number starting with a 1. Giant Beats were produced 1967-1974 so there shouldn't be a possibility of 1 being 1981 as there is with other Series like 2002 and 602. They weren't making them. Yes Giant Beats were reintroduced in 2005, but those serial numbers are distinct (8 digits).

But I would still like to discover more than one Giant Beat with a leading digit 1. When you start recording thousands of cymbals you do come across the occasional one off anomaly, and I wouldn't want to change the first year of serial numbers on the basis of just a one off anomaly. There also seem to be production batches where some models are produced in one year and then not for a year or two. We're still working on that as well.

Here is an example of a one off anomaly from the 602 series (22" Dark Ride) in a wiki entry which is informed by more detailed analysis of serial numbers and trademarks and price lists.

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Paiste_F...2%22_Dark_Ride

The wiki is improved by more evidence so do keep an eye out for us.
I didn't think of that, yes more than one to confirm is proper.
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  #36  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:15 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

I have spent the last three years researching this kind of stuff and all the hard evidence is that serial numbering started in 1972.

In addition to serial numbers, I am also researching the old Paiste lines from the 50s and 60s. And let me tell, I have spoken with people at Paiste many times and they readily admit to not having the best grasp on their history... that many records have gotten lost over the years. That they are just doing the best they can with questions about the old days.

There are ways to prove that the Swiss cymbals with 1xxxxx serials are from 1981 not 1971 (and the 0xxxxx cymbals are from 1980 not 1970). These ways include the ink stamping on the top of the cymbals and with Formula 602s the color of the size ink under bell is the biggest indicator.

Up until 1973 the diameter size ink under the bell of all 602 cymbals (except SE hats) was red. In 1973, they went to black ink under the bell. Now, find some 602s with 0xxxxx or 1xxxxx serials, after that look at the color of the ink under the bell, it will always be black proving the cymbal is from 1980/1 not 1970/1. A second indicator to use is the two-line "Paiste Formula 602" stamp above the bell on top side of the cymbal - this ink stamp was not introduced until sometime in 1972 either right before or along with the serial numbers.

This also applies to 2002s. An original 2002 from 1971 (and early 1972) should just have a basic black ink "Paiste" ink stamp above the bell. And when you do find these rare 2002s they do not have serial numbers. Like the 602, the two-line stamp came later. The 0 and 1xxxxx 2002s you see out there all have the common two-line stamp (unless it's been cleaned/faded off) again evidence these cymbals are from 1980/1 not 1970/1. If Paiste was right about serials starting in 1970 there would be no preserial 2002s as the line came out in late 1971.

Also with 2002s another way to test and prove the 1972 start date for serials, is using certain sizes or models: the Black Label 17, 19 and 21" size 2002s did not come out until late 1978 / early 1979 - you will find examples of them with 0 or 1xxxxx serials which means 1980/1 not 1970/1 because the cymbals were not released yet so it is impossible for the "0" or "1" to refer to 1970/1. Same goes for the Heavy 2002s, the Heavy Hats and 20" Heavy Ride did not come out until 1975 but you see them with 1xxxxx - again this proves the 1 = 1981 not 1971.

Most of the confusion regarding the serial numbers on Black Label Paistes stems from three things, imo.

1) Paiste providing customers with an erroneous date - they are using 1970 as a generalization when they should be saying early 70s if they can't definitively say 1972. You to have to keep in mind the people working at Paiste Customer Service now are younger people in their 20s and 30s - they were not around back then and don't know all the ins and outs of how the serial system works properly.


As an aside here... I know a drummer who knows Erik Paiste personally and Erik has told him that we are right about this, that serials started in 1972 first etched under the bell with month/year and then on top of the cymbals (for whatever that's worth)

2) The long-held, mistaken belief that the switch to the Color Logos happened across the board in 1980 - It did not - this happens in the early part of 1981. Yes, the RUDE series had the white logo in 1980 - the other, existing lines got switched over in 1981 (probably by late spring 1981). This has been proven many times by looking at the lowest serials on the 80s era Color Logo cymbals and by Paiste catalog and advertising material. The reason you see so many Black Label 2002s and 602s with 1xxxxx serials out there is because they were made for the first few months of 1981 and around this time is when Paiste starting becoming way more popular in USA so they were now making a lot more cymbals as compared to earlier in the 70s.

*** Going back to make a point about Paiste Customer Service here, the people working there now look at a Black Label cymbal with a 0 or 1 serial number and will tell you 1970 or 71 because they associate the BL cymbals with the 1970s and the Color Logos with the 1980s. That is why drummers who ask keep getting the wrong answer to this question, imo.


3) People not understanding how the serial numbers on the German-made Paistes work and are assuming the very old looking cymbals they see are from 1971. They are not... the German serial system is different. The Black Labels (and this goes for all Black Label lines made in Germany during the 70s: Stambul, Dixie, 404, 505, Super etc) will all start with a 1 or 2. They are numbered consecutively not first digit equals year of production. The second digit on a German "1" cymbal tells the story. The higher the second digit the deeper in the 70s the cymbal was made. i.e. a 14xxxx German BL is from the mid-70s while a 19xxxx is from the late 70s ('78 or '79). The Black Label Germans with a 2xxxxx were made ranging from probably late 1979 to early 1981. Not 1982, by 1982 all cymbals had the color logos.

Last edited by monkeyboy827; 08-14-2019 at 07:33 AM.
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  #37  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:06 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Like Zenstat mentioned above, the only way I will ever come off the 1972 start date is for someone to produce a Swiss-made Giant Beat, Stambul '65, Stambul or Dixie that has a 0 or 1xxxxx serial number because these are all lines that were discontinued before 1980 which would mean the 0 or 1 would have to reflect 1970 or 1971.

I have looked hard for one of these "smoking gun" cymbals and haven't found one.

So the correct sequence for Swiss Black Label serial numbers is as follows (a person told me that once I listed out like below that it now made perfect sense to him)

2xxxxx 1972
3xxxxx 1973
4xxxxx 1974
5xxxxx 1975
6xxxxx 1976
7xxxxx 1977
8xxxxx 1978
9xxxxx 1979
0xxxxx 1980
1xxxxx early 1981

*** There is no way imo a Swiss/German company would have a system that let the 0 and 1 pertain to both 1970/71 and 1980/81 cymbals without some other way to distinguish between the two (which we haven't ever seen) - this is another piece of strong evidence that 1972 is indeed the correct start year, in addition to the methods I mentioned above.


Switch to Color Logos with PAISTE and Series name now above the serial number i.e. PAISTE 2002
1xxxxx remainder of 1981 (some Color Logo 1981 cymbals just have PAISTE above the number and not series name)
2xxxxx 1982
3xxxxx 1983
4xxxxx 1984
5xxxxx 1985
6xxxxx early 1986 - at some point in 1986 the series name is dropped and the serials just have PAISTE above the number going forward and then PAISTE later changes to pAisTe above the serial

Last edited by monkeyboy827; 08-13-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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  #38  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:44 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Quote:
As an aside here... I know a drummer who knows Erik Paiste personally and Erik has told him that we are right about this, that serials started in 1972 first etched under the bell with month/year and then on top of the cymbals (for whatever that's worth)
I've got more details and data on these engraved dates.



We know from two different sources at Paiste (one was Erik Paiste) that these may also represent cymbals which were returned to have some rework done on them. They may date the modification not the original cymbal manufacture. Currently we have records for two dozen of these 602s.

1-72: 3 (one with R - 1 - 72 but in the same style)
2-72: 2
3-72: 5 (one pair of 15" SE hats with outline stamp and the older style patent list)
4-72: 6
5-72: none so far
6-72: 3

2-73: 3 (pair of 1972 serial number hats plus a preserial 20" Ride)
3-73: 1 (14" SE hat bottom preserial also engraved "property of KPAC")

The pair of hats with an engraved code and a serial number is a rework with a comment from Paiste. The engraving is 2 - 73 and the serial numbers on this pair of hats are 226602 and 226603. The hats were 12 3/4" and this is what Paiste Customer Services had to say:

“this hi-hat indeed is from 1972. In former times hi-hat pairs were matched and the serial number was embossed afterwards. The engravement inside the bell “2-73” means, that something was changed or repaired on customer’s request in February 1973 by our craftsmen. The size of 12 ¾” is indeed remarkable. It is possible, that the customer damaged the edge slightly, and our craftsmen trimmed the edge at the factory in February 1973 with the result of a smaller sized hi-hat. It sounds logical, but there is no evidence.”

The 3-73 preserial tells us that the time lag before a cymbal is returned for rework might be a year or two.

And last but not least there is one Giant Beat which has 7 or 9 - 72 (alas not very legible and I'm still hunting for my records on this).

I'm still working to pin down the year when the patent lists for the Sound Edge hats and Flat Rides changed from the earlier style to the later style It is looking 1974-ish at the moment. Another way to distinguish 1971 cymbals from 1981. You can also use the number of ripples on Sound Edge hats and I've got lots of data demonstrating that on 602s. I haven't cross checked that on 2002s yet.
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Last edited by zenstat; 08-13-2019 at 08:50 PM. Reason: spelling. sigh.
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  #39  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:50 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Awesome - I hadn't heard that before, that the etching referred to reworks, but essentially it shows the same thing - the cymbals being modified were originally made just prior to or in early 1972 and they don't have serial numbers with the one exception.

I think you would find the same thing regarding 2002 SE - the bottom hats had more ripples in the early days and that number is reduced (in most cases) the deeper you go into the 70s.

I have a good post on Facebook regarding the 602 patent stamps. Let me see if I can translate the info here.

One thing I didn't think of until this morning which is painfully obvious to this whole topic and kind of clinches 1972 for me (in addition to all the hard evidence) is this...

If Paiste is to be believed and they started putting serial numbers on in 1970 then why are there preserial 2002s? The 2002s were released in 1971 (and my understanding is it was in the Fall of '71). To have a preserial phase of 2002 means that serial numbers had to start AFTER 1971.

Last edited by monkeyboy827; 08-14-2019 at 09:58 AM.
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  #40  
Old 08-14-2019, 08:01 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Variations of the Patent Pending stamp on preserial 602 Sound Edge Hats

1. Pat. Pending 1967 until at least July 1969

2. Patent numbers from 4 countries on stamp (Swiss, Great Britain, Italy, USA) ~1970 (possibly as early as July 1969 but no sooner due to the inclusion of US patent number)

3. Patent numbers from 6 countries on stamp (adds Germany and USSR) ~1972 (possibly as early as April 1970 but no sooner due to the inclusion of German patent number)

There is the possibility that the earliest 602 SE Hats were stamped with a simple Sound Edge Top (and Bottom) in a plain font in red ink at 3'O Clock (like all other 602s) before they came up with the black wavy SE Logo stamp. I have an old advert with this alternate stamping. I was told by Ed Clift that this plain text stamping was just done for the ad and that all production SE Hats had the wavy black logo, but it wouldn't surprise me if some were sold with the plain red ink.

Last edited by monkeyboy827; 08-14-2019 at 08:30 AM.
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