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  #21  
Old 11-22-2019, 06:23 PM
lucky lucky is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

Or, it could be a New Yorker kit which had a 12” tom with a “12x22” bass!
If that’s the case grab it, out of all the drums I’ve owned, my favorite bass is a rattle can lacquer 12x22 bass!! It has been my go to for everything for the last couple of years, and I have been using a 8x12 WFL tom with it and the 12” tom is more than adequate.
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  #22  
Old 11-23-2019, 12:22 AM
K.O. K.O. is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Lugs View Post
Yeah again, what one could do wasn't the general rule for how Ludwig sold drum sets. It was always an option for a customer to order what they wanted, but that was done in specific ways for specific customers and not as a general rule. Ludwig didn't advertise their configurations this way and neither did any major drum company of the time. The general rule was that people bought full drum sets and not shell packs.
That statement does not reflect my own experiences. As a kid I looked into buying a new drum set on a few occasions, despite having no hope of raising the required funds. In all cases, I was told that if I didn't want one of the sets they had in stock (which in these small storefront "Mom & Pop" stores typically amounted to just one display set) I could order whatever I wanted. If I wanted a particular outfit right off the catalog page that was fine, and somewhat encouraged as it no doubt made things easier for the dealer, but I was given the option to get whatever I wanted with a "that's no big deal, whatever you want (within reason)" attitude....as long as I had the money, which I didn't. With this option presented to me I can recall spending hours rifling through the catalog, pen in hand, writing down all the potential options I might want. I probably filled a whole spiral notebook with notions as to what the "perfect" drum set was to me.

This was in the early 1970's at the height of Ludwig's market domination. This was also at a tiny music store in a small town, not some specialty drum shop in a big city (like Franks Drum Shop, who, BTW, only stocked shell packs that they would mate up with whatever hardware the customer desired). Perhaps things were different in your neck of the woods but around here, or at least at the two or three of local Ludwig dealers I talked to about my dream set at various times, I was free to specify whatever little or big changes I might want to implement to make my "dream set" just that. Now I know that probably the vast majority of buyers opted to just order one of the off the shelf catalog outfits but certainly, if this option was being presented to a 14 year old kid ( who the dealer probably knew had no chance of following through on ordering the set) in a small town from a dealer that probably only sold a half dozen sets a year, then I don't think it's correct to rewrite history and say Ludwig wouldn't do that except for "specific customers".

The price lists, which actually should supersede the catalogs since they were printed and updated more often and contained the most current information about what was available, bear this out as well on the first page under the "How to Order" heading where they lay out that you need to specify the part numbers, color, size, and clearly state any special instructions in regards to any order (one of which might have been to request sequential badge numbers be applied). This would seem to contradict any notion of Ludwig only offering a "cookie cutter" selection of around ten drum outfits at any given time and you had to pick from just those.

I get that some people only care about the cataloged outfits for whatever reasons. I get that dealers generally only stocked catalog outfits on the showroom floor and that is what most buyers did buy, even when having to order their sets. But I would argue that the notion that this was the only option that Ludwig offered, except in special cases, is not accurate...or at least didn't apply to me, maybe I was just lucky.

Last edited by K.O.; 11-23-2019 at 12:26 AM.
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  #23  
Old 11-23-2019, 08:56 AM
jaghog jaghog is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

Ok we are not saying that option did not exist ,
We are just stating the way we appraised drums today is based on the cat and the accuracy of the information present , color, badges and materials (wood , metal, fiberglass , acrylics etc )
I my self walk into a store mom and pop in early seventies and bought 2 Slingerland ft 16 and 20
Cow and trixon bd and ht
very small
but sure they appraised out as orphans but that’s what happens when you have so many single drums sure they make up a kit but if serials are close then yes it’s a kit from the cat but is it really ? Hard to say nay , but even if you went into the stock room and starting picking out drums to make a kit if numbers are out of bound than is that wrong for today’s collectors it would be a no
Would it make a difference if you had original receipt of order
maybe but again unless your were big name drummer what do you have
Example. Sammy Davis jr. custom kit he ordered not a bad drummer in his own right but no BR
It sold to a private collector for big bucks all that gold plate if you or I bought it it would not be worth much at all , even if we had original purchase order
I’m just saying that’s all
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  #24  
Old 11-23-2019, 10:42 AM
leedybdp leedybdp is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

OK, OK, OK. I give up. The catalog-correct people have won this argument. What have they gained? Not a thing except for a laugh from me and many other vintage drum lovers.

I'm from the Chicago suburbs. In 1961 and in 1965 I ordered my desired drum sets from the Rogers catalog and the Camco Catalog respectively. In both instances, I chose the sizes and configurations that I wanted. Each set differed somewhat from pictured drum sets. NEVER do I remember looking at serial numbers. The drums within each set matched each other vis-a-vis color, lugs, and other attached metal parts. Neither of my special ordered drum sets appeared in the catalogs even though they were ordered from the catalogs.

I also bought several other new drum sets from 1961 through 1978 that were in stock at music stores. One of the last sets that I bought was one tom short of what I wanted. The dealer called the Slingerland factory in Niles, and arranged for me to drive there to get that tom. By the way, that new tom from the factory was a perfect match for the green sparkle set I bought from the store. The bass drum, mounted tom, and floor tom had been sitting in factory-sealed boxes in their attic for over ten years. The factory asked me which side the new mounted tom would be on and what type of tom mount should be on it. The warehouse guy took a green sparkle tom off the shelf, and installed the badge, proper mounting receiver on the proper side. I never bothered to check for serial numbers.

Today, a catalog anal-retentive would cluck his tongue while telling me that maybe the three drums were from a "born together" catalog-correct set. But that the other mounted tom must have been adopted to that family many years later because of the serial numbers.

Oh yeah... I must add that no new drum sets I ever bought included the catalog-correct stands, pedals, sticks, brushes, etc. because I already had very usable things of those sorts. I did order a Swivomatic bass drum pedal with my new Rogers set. That pedal was my gigging pedal from 1961 through 1978 with many rebuilds and parts replacements. So, you catalog sticklers have won your case with other people of your same opinion--not with me or many other vintage drum lovers.
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  #25  
Old 11-23-2019, 11:09 AM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

I did a study on the serial number ranges seen in "born together" drum sets. It is posted at my website https://gretschdrum.netfirms.com/other-projects.html (scroll down to the second topic listed on the page).

As you can see, it is difficult to determine how large a range in serial numbers can be in a born-together set.
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Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
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  #26  
Old 11-23-2019, 12:12 PM
leedybdp leedybdp is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDrumDad View Post
I did a study on the serial number ranges seen in "born together" drum sets. It is posted at my website https://gretschdrum.netfirms.com/other-projects.html (scroll down to the second topic listed on the page).

As you can see, it is difficult to determine how large a range in serial numbers can be in a born-together set.
That's heresy! (sarcasm alert) The serial numbers MUST be within a relatively narrow range in order to be considered "born together". I have a drum set that was almost for certain shipped together as a new set. The 8x12 and 14x20 have the same date hand-written in ink by RGB. The 16x16 has a hand-written in ink by RGB date that is five years later. Walberg & Auge drums of that era were all hand made by Robert G. Bernard. The shells were most likely dated either upon when they were received at their factory with lugs and wrap already in place from the various shell makers or upon completion of bare shells with the wrap and metal parts installed.This set has Roger shells, lugs, and hoops. The reason I'm so certain that they were shipped together as a complete set is that they were wrapped in a color that is perhaps the least desirable of any drums that they ever sold--Salmon Satin Flame. The wrap on all three drums looks as though it came from the same batch. Those of us familiar with the satin flames are pretty good at noticing differences in wrap within a drum set that comes from different batches.
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  #27  
Old 11-23-2019, 01:32 PM
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leedybdp View Post
One of the last sets that I bought was one tom short of what I wanted. The dealer called the Slingerland factory in Niles, and arranged for me to drive there to get that tom. The bass drum, mounted tom, and floor tom had been sitting in factory-sealed boxes in their attic for over ten years. The factory asked me which side the new mounted tom would be on and what type of tom mount should be on it. The warehouse guy took a green sparkle tom off the shelf, and installed the badge, proper mounting receiver on the proper side.

Today, a catalog anal-retentive would cluck his tongue while telling me that maybe the three drums were from a "born together" catalog-correct set. But that the other mounted tom must have been adopted to that family many years later because of the serial numbers.
.....and that catalog anal-retentive would be correct! By your own admission the second tom was added over ten years later. The serial would reflect that as well as nuanced construction/hardware differences. There is a difference between born together and sold together.
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  #28  
Old 11-23-2019, 01:56 PM
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDrumDad View Post
I did a study on the serial number ranges seen in "born together" drum sets. It is posted at my website https://gretschdrum.netfirms.com/other-projects.html (scroll down to the second topic listed on the page).

As you can see, it is difficult to determine how large a range in serial numbers can be in a born-together set.
Nice study. Closely clustered serials do seem to correlate to being born together but the opposite is not necessarily true. Large spreads do not automatically eliminate a kit from born together status.
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  #29  
Old 11-23-2019, 02:29 PM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by slingerfan View Post
Nice study. Closely clustered serials do seem to correlate to being born together but the opposite is not necessarily true. Large spreads do not automatically eliminate a kit from born together status.
I tried to gather actual information from actual sets so that there was a foundation upon which to base the analysis. I do not know what the "right" number is but I would suggest that based upon the drums involved in this study, the range can be more than some believe.
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Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
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  #30  
Old 11-23-2019, 02:31 PM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: 60's Ludwig Kits - sequential serial numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leedybdp View Post
That's heresy! (sarcasm alert) The serial numbers MUST be within a relatively narrow range in order to be considered "born together". I have a drum set that was almost for certain shipped together as a new set. The 8x12 and 14x20 have the same date hand-written in ink by RGB. The 16x16 has a hand-written in ink by RGB date that is five years later. Walberg & Auge drums of that era were all hand made by Robert G. Bernard. The shells were most likely dated either upon when they were received at their factory with lugs and wrap already in place from the various shell makers or upon completion of bare shells with the wrap and metal parts installed.This set has Roger shells, lugs, and hoops. The reason I'm so certain that they were shipped together as a complete set is that they were wrapped in a color that is perhaps the least desirable of any drums that they ever sold--Salmon Satin Flame. The wrap on all three drums looks as though it came from the same batch. Those of us familiar with the satin flames are pretty good at noticing differences in wrap within a drum set that comes from different batches.
I realize that your post is sarcastic, but would like to point out that my study involved Ludwig drums, not W&A. Whatever conclusions one draws from my paper are not necessarily applicable to other brands.
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Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
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