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  #21  
Old 08-03-2019, 12:24 AM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Some of the details/info are incorrect,
Paiste actually, physically started adding 6 digital serial numbers on the last of the, Giant Beats, start of 2002's& start of black label 602's in 1971, they stopped in 1981 in Aall of the Paiste range, 2002's became red label, 602's became blue label.
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2019, 12:29 AM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

How can you tell a 1971 from a 1981?,
I assume &think ALL of the black labels (including Giant Beats, 602's) we're Swiss made&the red labels &re-issue 90s 2002's& Giant Beats are German made?.
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  #23  
Old 08-03-2019, 12:30 AM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Blank was 50's up until 1970.
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  #24  
Old 08-03-2019, 12:33 AM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Pity&a shame "Paiste-only" sure is closed, shut down &no longer,
They had some real Paiste experts in there, same applies to Cymbalholic. com "BonzoMoon" comes to mind.
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  #25  
Old 08-03-2019, 12:35 AM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

I'm interested in the 15" heavy hats.
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  #26  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:18 AM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

What's the weights of the 1975 heavy black label Paiste 2002 hi-hats?.
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  #27  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:05 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussievintagedrumuser View Post
Some of the details/info are incorrect,
Paiste actually, physically started adding 6 digital serial numbers on the last of the, Giant Beats, start of 2002's& start of black label 602's in 1971, they stopped in 1981 in Aall of the Paiste range, 2002's became red label, 602's became blue label.
I respectfully disagree. I've spent years working all this stuff out and am happy to change the wiki if you have proper evidence of serial numbers in use in 1971. So far they begin in mid 1972. Some of the mixup might come from failure to pay attention to the different decode needed for the German made cymbals. That research is also still ongoing.

The wiki has been resurrected by a group of us who were involved with the Paiste-Only wiki. The discussion (versus wiki curated info) has moved to Facebook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussievintagedrumuser View Post
How can you tell a 1971 from a 1981?,
I assume &think ALL of the black labels (including Giant Beats, 602's) we're Swiss made&the red labels &re-issue 90s 2002's& Giant Beats are German made?.
Serial numbers started in 1972 which is why they are unique given the decade prefix system Paiste used. It all works with Swiss precision (on Swiss serial numbers). The details were worked out by examining many hundreds of cymbals which have other production clues which give the year. Any cymbal with a leading 1 is 1981 so far. Again if you have a counter example bring it forth. We improve our work with new evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussievintagedrumuser View Post
Blank was 50's up until 1970.
Ummm. I was talking blank prefix which means no other words above the serial number. You seem to be talking pre serial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussievintagedrumuser View Post
I'm interested in the 15" heavy hats.
This thread is an ancient resurrect from 2011 so those hats are likely to be long gone, but no harm in asking. And the posts about dating cymbals earlier on in this thread are a decade out of date with the current research. I can't always tell whether you are objecting to the old out of date posts, or the latest research.
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Last edited by zenstat; 08-08-2019 at 05:28 PM. Reason: clarify Swiss vs German numbering scheme
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  #28  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:58 AM
Aussievintagedrumuser Aussievintagedrumuser is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

I stand corrected Paiste DID indeed start using serial numbers from 1971,
It 's on there website,
Other forums,
I rest my case.
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  #29  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:48 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussievintagedrumuser View Post
I stand corrected Paiste DID indeed start using serial numbers from 1971,
It 's on there website,
Other forums,
I rest my case.
Well all one needs to do is produce a 1971 serial number.
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  #30  
Old 08-08-2019, 04:53 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussievintagedrumuser View Post
I stand corrected Paiste DID indeed start using serial numbers from 1971,
It 's on there website,
Other forums,
I rest my case.
I think you need a better case.

Other forums:

What is on other forums (including this one) is not evidence by itself. It is the same misinformation repeated over and over again, sometimes with details lost in paraphrasing. Evidence is when somebody gives full and proper documentation of a cymbal with a serial number starting with the digit 1 (6 digits, no prefix) and demonstrates why other attributes exclude 1981 as the production year. When that happens we update the wiki accordingly.

"It 's on there [SIC] website"

Link to the specific page please. I don't see anything which explicitly says "6 digit serial numbers started in 1971" on the Pasite web site. Or did you mean some other site?

Are you aware that there is a version of the 2002 embossed stamp which predates the version most people are familiar with? It has a border around it, and appears to predate the more common version. It also has a different cross hatch pattern on the crescent moon.



Current thinking is that it predates the more common version (on stylistic and other grounds like appearance on pre serial 2002s). The existence of this variation means every report of a leading digit 1 on a 2002 now needs to be rechecked to see which version of the embossed stamp it has. This is one of a dozen lines of evidence which informs the latest serial number research based on cymbals which actually exist.

The same sort of thing applies to the 602 embossed logo where we have gone from just one, to over 5. We have also gone from "602s weren't made in Germany" to examples of the Made in Germany embossed stamp.



There are ink changes and other information on some models which allow us to be more accurate in distinguishing 1971 from 1981 cymbals (independent of the serial number). Here is a Sound Edge example of the next level of analysis. Sound Edge hats start out life with a patent list on the bottom. This list changes a bit over time as patents are taken out in different countries. When I come across a Black Label 2002 which has 1 as the first digit I can tell it is 1981 because of which patent list it has. For 602s the situation is easier now that we have a better established order for when the model ink and diameter ink went from red to black (which didn't happen at the same time for all 602 models).

Very detailed analysis and large data sets why we now believe serial numbers came in mid 1972 rather than 1971. That pattern of introduction of changes a year or two after the decade start and a few months into the year is a repeated Paiste pattern over the years. It also happens to be a repeated pattern for Zildjian cymbals.

We have moved on a long way due to a group of dedicated researchers. The internet (including drum forums) has not moved forward and all the posts from years ago are still there. Consider this thread as evidence of how the old beliefs (and old posts) persist despite the new information. I still need to add a page to the wiki (hung off the serial numbers page) which covers all the lines of evidence for mid 1972. I've only mentioned a few of the different lines of evidence here and I would really prefer to spend time working on the full page for the wiki. But I'm always open to discuss new evidence.

Steve Black, PhD -- retired statistician and general gatherer of information about cymbals
Admin of Cymbalholic (RIP)
Contributor to the Pasite-Only Wiki (RIP)
Owner of the resurrected Paiste Wiki
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__________________
"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance" (Robert R Coveyou)

Cymbal Wiki || A one stop shop for all things cymbal
Paiste portal click here || Avedis Zildjian portal click here || K Zildjian Istanbul portal click here

Last edited by zenstat; 08-14-2019 at 05:56 PM. Reason: photos inlined
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