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  #1  
Old 10-04-2015, 09:20 PM
Darwinator Darwinator is offline
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Default "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

Hi,
I'm hoping that one of the experts can help me with this A Zildjian 20" ride. The stamp measures 1 1/4" or just under 32mm verified by caliper measurement, has the 3 dots, most of the "quirks" in the text (zenstat), as well as the vertical alignment of the lower lettering (zenstat), and the Co. All of this combined with the font style and size seems to indicate a 1954(ish) stamp. I've heard/read that the hammering style is as important in the identification of these cymbals, and that is something that I know nothing about. Help, please? Check out these pics...
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2015, 09:52 PM
Chromeo Chromeo is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

I would assume it's early 60's, but Drumaholic or zenstats might be able to tell you more. I have Hi Hats with this stamp, but they're not New Beats so I would guess early 60's.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:55 PM
RIMS n SKINS RIMS n SKINS is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

This is a early 60s stamp...

If the 3dots and Hollow Zildijan ..would be a 50s
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  #4  
Old 10-05-2015, 01:23 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

Alas I haven't yet put up my annotated hammering pages so I can't point you to some new part of my site. Yours has a look which makes me think that it might be a hand hammered one from the late Trans Stamp/Early Large Stamp period. But it's not a sure thing. It could be a cymbal from a later production period. The evidence isn't strong either way. But here's what I'm noticing.





The linear looking pattern to the hammering (we type it as ///// or ||||| or \\\\\\ as a quick way of describing it) is often found on cymbals from the mid 1950s. But that's just a statistical observation not a "if it has this then it is 100% definitely a..." kind of observation. And the contrary evidence on yours being a 1954 comes from the lack of obvious hammering on the bottom. So I can't be sure.

At present Drumaholic is the only person I know of who claims to be able to identify a 1954 stamp from the stamp alone:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=16096

But he hasn't revealed how to identify a 1954 stamp from the stamp alone. I tend to rely more heavily on the look of the hammering, because that's what tells you the production period for a cymbal. The pressed in die stamp goes on much later in the process (when it is retrieved from the vault to fill an order) which is consistent with what we've observed about the proportion of mismatches between the die stamp on a cymbal and other production clues.

Since that part of my web site was last updated I've changed my thinking after coming across more evidence. I've got a couple of cymbals with the quirks and that 1.25" stamp but found on cymbals which fit the 1960s production clues. And I'm starting to think that particular configuration represents on of the dies used during the 1960s. We already know there were multiple dies used during the 60s, and up until now there were thought to be two. Now I think there are at least 3. An alternative explanation is that the quirks themselves represent a particular kind of stamping fault, but based on what I've seen to date I'm thinking that the quirks are the telltale evidence of one particular die. But it's early days on that one.

Also, on present evidence I can't rule out the possibility that the so called 1954 stamp cymbals represent cymbals which were hammered and lathed in the late Trans Stamp or Large Stamp era, sat in the vault for some years, and then got a die stamp pressed in which is one of the 3 die stamps used in the 1960s. That's a long time in the vault, but it would also explain why they seem to be relatively rare. Of course the other explanation for their being rare is the number of people who just say "that's a 60s stamp" and don't look any deeper.

If Drumaholic were to come forward with a proper definition and example of how to tell a 1954 stamp from the stamp alone, then we could swing into action and check through our cymbals and do the correlations with other production clues. But he won't, so the community doesn't get the advantage of independent eyes checking the evidence and interpretation.

Here's an older thread where Drumaholic ids a 1954 stamp and you can see the degree of hammering on it:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/show...highlight=1954

Yours doesn't show that much hammering, but given the degree of variability...it still could be.

One other check you can try is to measure the diameter of the mounting hole. If it is 7/16" (slightly smaller than the modern 1/2" standard) that adds weight to it being older. If it is 1/2" that tells you nothing about whether it is 60s vs mid 50s, unless you can also detect that it was enlarged. My writeup on this is here:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/holes.html

But be warned that Drumaholic himself has in the past stated that hole size is useless:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=43808

see also:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=34455

I just don't happen to believe him since I've been having a look (helped by a few others) and have found useful information. It just takes more finesse to interpret it.
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Last edited by zenstat; 10-05-2015 at 03:18 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-05-2015, 11:58 AM
Darwinator Darwinator is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIMS n SKINS View Post
This is a early 60s stamp...

If the 3dots and Hollow Zildijan ..would be a 50s
Hmmm, True, but I believe that the Hollow Zildjian feature is that of a LARGE stamp from the 50s, while mine is a SMALL stamp with Bold Zildjian lettering. Zenstat seems to agree, though, that it may be an early 60s but concedes that it does have some 1954ish characteristics. SO, nothing conclusive, if that's even a possibility Thanks for your help...

Last edited by Darwinator; 10-05-2015 at 12:09 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:07 PM
Darwinator Darwinator is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

WOW, Zenstat, that is an amazing and insightful response! Thanks! I've learned a lot...
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:44 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwinator View Post
WOW, Zenstat, that is an amazing and insightful response! Thanks! I've learned a lot...
Sorry I can't be more conclusive. Having perused my 1954 and Trans Stamp picture archives again, I'm thinking that the lack of strongly visible hammering on the bottom of yours (which can just be in the nature of the lighting of the photo) makes it more likely it is from a later production period. Drumaholic says that bottom hammering dropped out in the early 1960s



so he might say that is 100% certain to be a 1960s cymbal. But unless he breaks his silence and presents his evidence and his reasoning we just won't know. I've asked but never received an answer to the question of how large a sample size his "early 60s" date is based on, how the production era (versus shipping era) of the cymbals was determined, how well the observed pattern fit any particular year, and so on. He may well be correct, but we can't judge the weight of evidence for ourselves.
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:07 PM
Darwinator Darwinator is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

Hey, zenstat, you really have been VERY helpful. I tried to be as fair/similar with the lighting as possible while taking pics of the top and the bottom of the cymbal. Since it shows more of the hammering on the top but not on the bottom then I must accept that it most likely is not a 1954ish production cymbal. I suppose, however, that it could be an early 60s cymbal with the mid 50s stamp, right? Actually, that would be pretty cool, too! Sounds like only Drumaholic can ID the '54 stamp, though, and I haven't seen anything from him. Again, thank you so much, so appreciated.
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  #9  
Old 10-05-2015, 07:14 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwinator View Post
Hey, zenstat, you really have been VERY helpful. I tried to be as fair/similar with the lighting as possible while taking pics of the top and the bottom of the cymbal. Since it shows more of the hammering on the top but not on the bottom then I must accept that it most likely is not a 1954ish production cymbal. I suppose, however, that it could be an early 60s cymbal with the mid 50s stamp, right? Actually, that would be pretty cool, too! Sounds like only Drumaholic can ID the '54 stamp, though, and I haven't seen anything from him. Again, thank you so much, so appreciated.
Thanks. I'm trying to teach people how to fish for themselves. Drumaholic seems to want to just hand people a fish (when they ask him nicely to identify a cymbal) but keep the fishing rod all to himself.

Just a few clarifications for future readers:

Drumaholic claimed to be able to diagnose a 1954 die stamp from the stamp alone (and not by the height). I can't say whether he really can because he won't present his evidence or answer questions. And I don't know if he has changed his mind about his interpretation since then. Time has passed.

It's relatively easy to distinguish a cymbal which has the right hammering characteristics. Only the die stamp is at issue. I've documented the right hammering characteristics on cymbals with stamps at two different heights, so there isn't just one "1954" die stamp.

The "quirks" turn up on some perfectly plain Jane 1960s cymbals suggesting that they aren't a diagnostic difference between the "1954" and the 1960s. The hammering is a diagnostic difference.
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Last edited by zenstat; 10-05-2015 at 07:25 PM. Reason: simplified (I hope)
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  #10  
Old 10-05-2015, 08:59 PM
Darwinator Darwinator is offline
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Default Re: "A Zildjian" stamp experts help, PLEASE

Fair enough, and I'm very content with what I have learned... thanks! At the end of the day it's still a nice playing A Zildjian from the early 60s that is in very good condition, and with a bit of mystique about it since there are unsolved questions. I will continue to watch the research methods evolve. Cheers!
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