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  #11  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:57 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian Clone? Zildjian K? What is this?

I've reviewed drum catalogs from 1930 onwards and compiled an overview. The choice of 1930 was because this review started out with a focus on Avedis Zildjian history (and Avedis Zildjian value lines in particular) rather than K Zildjian Istanbul. That's also why I don't specifically mention the Gretsch owned trademark Ajaha. This is just a work in progress


Based on what I found, it looks like Italian cymbals were being supplied via US and UK drum catalogs until the early 1950s. There were second (less expensive) lines from Avedis Zildjian and in those cases the Italians were a third line. Then Paiste appeared on the scene and things get a little more complicated with another player in the mix. Italian cymbals didn't go away in the 1950s, but they started looking different. They were still pretending to be Turkish in origin, but they now looked like the Turkish cymbals of the day. And Gretsch (who owned the Ajaha trademark since before 1912) continued to offer Italian cymbals as a second line until 1979. Ajaha is on the UFIP stencil brand list, although not all Ajaha cymbals were necessarily made by members of the UFIP cooperative.

The Z.Fengjian & Cie example you are asking about is probably earlier than the time period covered by my summary. The Z.Fengjian & Cie also is not on the UFIP stencil brand list. We already know that there are some brands which are not on that list but probably should be, and others (possibly Z.Fengjian & Cie) which were not made under the auspices of the UFIP cooperative which is why it doesn't appear on the UFIP list. UFIP and Italian are not 100% synonymous despite what eBay sellers suggest. The picture gets more hazy as you go back before the 1930s.

The Italian cymbals tend to look like the K Zildjian cymbals of the day, as far as I can tell. I say "as far as I can tell" because we don't have reliable production era data for Italian cymbals which are from the early days. So the early ones (like yours) look early in terms of bell shape, hammering, and lathing. They also tend to be more common in smaller diameters (15" and under) and are often thicker. They are the same attributes the K Zildjian cymbals have back then.

Later on (say the 40s) there were Italian cymbals which looked more like the K Zildjian cymbal of the day. I wouldn't call the Italian cymbals "clones" or "fakes" because I reserve those terms for other use. In my usage Clones are attempts to recreate specific cymbals which are done with full disclosure. Fakes I use for the more recent cymbals which have fake trademarks applied to them so they look like K Zildjian Istanbul cymbals from the 1940s - 1970s.

I like the Drumaholic term "ersatz K" for these non K Zildjian cymbals where the makers have gone to the effort of putting on trademarks or ink which is suggestive of Turkish origin. Note that there are also some Turkish made cymbals which aren't K Zildjian in origin as well. We're used to that now what with lots of brands of cymbals which are made in Turkey. But there are a few examples from long ago.
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Cymbal Wiki || A one stop shop for all things cymbal
Paiste portal click here || Avedis Zildjian portal click here || K Zildjian Istanbul portal click here

Last edited by zenstat; 11-21-2019 at 03:04 PM. Reason: vdf viewer for pdf filetype is troublesome
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  #12  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:22 PM
hardbat hardbat is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian Clone? Zildjian K? What is this?

It should be added that the reason Italy became a center for cymbal making, was because of the history of church bell casting in Pistoia. Also, many of the Italian ersatz K's are excellent in their own right. Currently my go-to hi hats are an old set of Italian Fiorello & Figli Vibras. I use them more often than my old stamp K's.
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  #13  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:31 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian Clone? Zildjian K? What is this?

Quote:
@Zen, does your research show any value for something like this?
I haven't yet done any specific analysis of the meager data I've got for those very old ones, but in general Italian cymbals don't get the same price premium that K Zildjian Istanbul cymbals do. One problem is that they sometimes get put up for sale incorrectly identified as K Zildjian Istanbul but when they sell how could we know whether the purchase price reflected a buyer who was fooled into thinking they were genuine? I don't interview buyers about their purchase decisions, and I don't know of anybody else who does.

Quote:
Is there any reason why it appears ISTANBUL and CONSTANTINOPLE are stamped on top of one another?
I don't know. There were years of transition from calling the city Constantinople to calling it Istanbul and maybe the person who struck the stamp changed their mind about what to use. There are a number of stamping flaws and oddities from those days when the different parts of the trademark were separate dies.

Quote:
It came with legit Zildjian and Zilco (The early, trademark/scimitar version) cymbals so I can get you weights/pictures on those in a few weeks if you're interested for your data.
More data is always welcome, and you can see I have an interest in Zilco.

Just in case you have trouble with the pdf viewer in use on VDF, I've supplied a direct link to the pdf. I am having trouble and was reminded why I generally avoid the pdf filetype on VDF.

click to download or view outside of vBulletin

This is a work sheet for me, and it will change as I get more time to work on it. You are welcome to take a copy and make use of the information. Just remember that it will get updated with new info as it is incorporated into pages in Cymbal Wiki. For example, since that pdf was last updated I've got a Zilco Constantinople stamp together with a Trans Stamp 3 (Hartrick Type III) which is direct evidence of the Zilco Constantinople stamp being in factory use in the early 1950s.



You can find more on Zilco, and more details on that double stamped 22" cymbal here:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#zilco

The years for Zilco TM use was based on artist modified photos in old catalogs (as mentioned in the pdf). We are still a long way from knowing first year of use and last year of use in the factory for the two Zilco trademarks (versus the later Zilco AZCO Canadian version).
__________________
"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance" (Robert R Coveyou)

Cymbal Wiki || A one stop shop for all things cymbal
Paiste portal click here || Avedis Zildjian portal click here || K Zildjian Istanbul portal click here

Last edited by zenstat; 11-21-2019 at 03:51 PM. Reason: specific q and a
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  #14  
Old 11-21-2019, 04:56 PM
Whatarethese123 Whatarethese123 is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian Clone? Zildjian K? What is this?

Incredible!

@Hardbat, I've got a set of Zanchi cymbals that came with a set I bought a few years back, but they've sat in a case for a while now. I should really give them a try.

@Zen, your research is absolutely incredible. I often find myself consulting your website to figure out what I have. I'll try to send you some pics, weights and dimensions when I can get these cymbals in hand which should be later next week.

Thanks to all of you for replying and helping point me in the right direction.
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  #15  
Old 11-26-2019, 02:36 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian Clone? Zildjian K? What is this?

For archival purposes, here are the undersized 14" pair mentioned above.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-K-Z...4383.l4275.c10

Asking $349.95 + $46.45 shipping (I use LA as my destination). One looks like a legit K Zildjian trademark. The other cymbal has none. The bells are different. The tops are very polished, but I don't think that's enough to account for the lack of trademark.

These images are reduced to meet the site size limits but I have all the originals at full size if anybody needs to see more detail.
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__________________
"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance" (Robert R Coveyou)

Cymbal Wiki || A one stop shop for all things cymbal
Paiste portal click here || Avedis Zildjian portal click here || K Zildjian Istanbul portal click here

Last edited by zenstat; 11-26-2019 at 03:18 PM. Reason: images added
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  #16  
Old 11-26-2019, 03:18 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian Clone? Zildjian K? What is this?

For archival purposes, here are the 15" pair mentioned above.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-zil...UAAOSweK9dWZWw

Asking $189.95 + $29.58 shipped. One seems to be a legit Con 2 but they applied the English on top. We already knew the trademark was in separate sections which were struck separately, but this is the first one like this I've seen. The other cymbal is an Italian made Zanchi Vibra. Different bells. Different hammering styles. The Vibra looks later (1950s) than the Con 2 (1930s). The earliest years for the Vibra series aren't that well pinned down. Pinksterboer (The Cymbal Book p174) says "since the 1950s" and Luca Luciano (Italian Vintage Drums and Cymbals, 1st Ed p136) gives 1947 as the year Zanchi got started as a separate entity from UFIP.

These images are reduced to meet the site size limits but I have all the originals at full size if anybody needs to see more detail.
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__________________
"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance" (Robert R Coveyou)

Cymbal Wiki || A one stop shop for all things cymbal
Paiste portal click here || Avedis Zildjian portal click here || K Zildjian Istanbul portal click here
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