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  #11  
Old 03-16-2013, 07:31 PM
mlayton mlayton is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

i'm studying some supposed trans stamps and have found at least one so far that doesn't line up...

mike
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  #12  
Old 03-16-2013, 08:03 PM
BigE BigE is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

Very good query. Maybe I should go and clean out groove on the Z and see if it has those small grooves in it. Then that would be a defining instance. MAYBE....LOL. Are there not 2 transtamps? It seems one lines up and one doesn't?

http://www.hidehitters.com/cymbals/Z...ml#SECONDSTAMP

Ed

Last edited by BigE; 03-16-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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  #13  
Old 03-17-2013, 03:36 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

Well it may turn out the the lining up of the H of Turkish and E of Made is not constant in the 1950s or maybe even 60s because the stamp was made in pieces (which we already know from the independence of the upper Arabic and lower English parts) and in fact is in more pieces than we know about.

Just because we can see a variation (and define it clearly), doesn't mean that it actually "means" anything chronological. I'm thinking typesetter style loading of the pieces into a holder and somebody didn't take as much care on some days. I say "take as much care" because I think it looks really nice to have them lined up, but that's an individual aesthetic observation.

Note it is still possible that the 1970s stamp without the 3 dots didn't ever have the line up of the H of Turkish and E of Made. We would need people who have 1970s stamps to all look at their stamps and see if they come up with a counterexample. Bringing forward 5 or 10 1970s stamps which fit a working hypothesis isn't very strong evidence (alas).
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  #14  
Old 03-17-2013, 03:46 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Very good query. Maybe I should go and clean out groove on the Z and see if it has those small grooves in it. Then that would be a defining instance. MAYBE....LOL. Are there not 2 transtamps? It seems one lines up and one doesn't?

http://www.hidehitters.com/cymbals/Z...ml#SECONDSTAMP

Ed
Yes, more questions. Unfortunately the Hide Hitters info is not very complete. Also Bill Hartrick (Drumaholic: where is he?) will tell you it is stolen from his timeline, but way out of date with Bill's latest research. And we're really working in the dark if we don't have accurate measurements of the height of stamps, because those are also put forward as defining characteristics. Hide Hitters sometimes give quite vague terms like "this is a smaller logo". Not really accurate enough to help us.

I've seen photo examples of the extra grooves in the earlier Trans Stamps but I don't know (again) how many Trans Stamps have been examined in total, how many had the deeper grooves, what the accuracy of the dating for all those cymbals is (eg vague memories of purchase date vs receipts) and how strong the association is with chronology. Lots of unpublished pieces of the puzzle. Yes there seem to be (at least) two variations. The meaning of this? I don't know.
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  #15  
Old 03-17-2013, 06:43 PM
BigE BigE is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

Nice info there Zenstat on your site! Took a lot of work I am sure. Yes Drumaholic is very knowledgeable about Zildjians. I have searched some of his posts for info.
But I think it looks like a Transition Stamp, and probably 50s to me from searching here and other places. And the replys by others here. I will wait for Drumaholic to help out too.

Thanks very much, Ed
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  #16  
Old 03-17-2013, 06:51 PM
Agopsalott Agopsalott is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

I have one that's 2708 g's and sounds great. Wobbles too. $300 would be a great deal.
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  #17  
Old 03-17-2013, 07:35 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

That's a transitional stamp. And I don't think that the "flat spot" that you refer to is necessarily the result of abuse. This is a common misconception. These very old cymbals often came out foundry fresh with all sorts of artifacts on them and this one is pretty common. Check the line weight on the lathe lines in that area. If its a foundry artifact, at least some of the lathe lines will vary in line weight as they traverse the defect.

I don't recommend digging out the crud from the trademark to see if there's for lines in it. Your cymbal is a type IV, so I guarantee that there are no lines. And that means your cymbal dates to about 1953 or 1954.
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  #18  
Old 03-17-2013, 07:53 PM
RIMS n SKINS RIMS n SKINS is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
While I agree with Mike this looks 50s in morphology and lathing, I noticed something that puzzles me about that stamp. My own trans stamp and others I've seen have the H of "TurkisH Cymbal" lined up very nicely above the E of "MadE in USA". 1970s Stamps without the 3 dots don't have this very nice alignment. 1950s small stamps without the 3 dots have this nice alignment. 1960s stamps with the 3 dots do show this very nice alignment. Somebody just posted one of these here (although the lathing nearly took out the MADE IN USA you can still make out the top of it):



and hopefully you will see what I mean. Now go back to the beginning of this thread and have a look at the one you posted. It doesn't line up. So I'm posting this query in the hope that our resident philatelists can enlighten me about this.
this is a 60s cym..
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  #19  
Old 03-17-2013, 07:59 PM
RIMS n SKINS RIMS n SKINS is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Hi Forumites, Does this look like a Transtamp to you guys? Z and Co stamped harder? Or is it just a 60s maybe 70s.

Ed
this is a trans stamp...
1948/52..
afterwards..the stamp was made twice as larg..(3" wide by 2" high) also in the mid 50s...a ride was only 21"
22" were made in the trans stamp erra..
based on the weight...$250 max...only if you like what you hear..(meaning go play it../ have it set up on his kit and play it for 10/15mins)..
otherwise a light 21" 60s ride can be bought for $150 or less..
I find that the light splash & hats of the trans stamp are great..
Haven't found a crash or ride that i like from that erra..
Hope this helps..
Based on the pic you supplied...I'm 100% certain.
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Bop iT / Til U Drop iT.

ROGER's
1964 Cleveland,.18/14/12 in WMP
1966 Cleveland, 20/14/12 O'natural.
Fullerton,...20/16/13/12 Silver Glass

WFL
1957 B/R Super Classics In WMP

Snares..
Wood & COB Powertones,
Wood & COB Dynasonics,
57 Jazz Festival

Zildjian avedis cymbals.
40s/60s era.
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  #20  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:13 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: 22" Zildjian which stamp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIMS n SKINS View Post
this is a 60s cym..
Indeed. That's what I said it was and why I posted it. It was given as a 1960s example of the vertical alignment of the H of "TurkisH Cymbal" lined up very nicely above the E of "MadE in USA". To illustrate the lining up. Sorry if my language confused you.

And in case there are any others who aren't close readers, I've also always agreed that the OP has a trans stamp. What I was asking about (hoping to hear what Drumaholic has in his extensive collection of information) is if the vertical alignment "means" anything. I ask because somebody else (not me) suggested it (somewhere else) as a way to tell 1950s small stamps from 1970s stamps. Again, not that there aren't other ways to distinguish a 1950s small stamp cymbal from a 1970s cymbal. Just that this vertical alignment was put forward as a diagnostic difference. Since I didn't know what the evidence was for or against the proposition, I was asking what evidence there was.

Sorry Ed, if this has created a bit of an off topic diversion to your original question. I just saw a chance to get some information which might be of general interest.
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Last edited by zenstat; 03-17-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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