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  #1  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:33 AM
Jack Boyd Jack Boyd is offline
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Default Newby needs help

Please forgive me if there's a sticky post somewhere to answer questions that get asked frequently (I looked, but couldn't find one).
I have just purchased my first couple of vintage cymbals with a plan to play them as part of a small "coffee shop kit" for acoustic music, small rooms, low volume gigs, etc. The cymbals are not super rare or collectable.
After the sale the seller mentioned something about the "smaller hole" in the cymbals. I wasn't aware of this issue and need advice on how to proceed.
Is drilling larger holes in the cymbals a horrible idea?
Thanks in advance.
Jack
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:48 AM
mlayton mlayton is offline
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Default Re: Newby needs help

Jack. Smaller bell hole usually equates to a much older cymbal. Older cymbals are often very desirable. Some have drilled these to fit modern stands. I certainly would not. I'd find a proper stand if needed.

Mike
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  #3  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:40 PM
Jack Boyd Jack Boyd is offline
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Default Re: Newby needs help

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlayton View Post
Jack. Smaller bell hole usually equates to a much older cymbal. Older cymbals are often very desirable. Some have drilled these to fit modern stands. I certainly would not. I'd find a proper stand if needed.

Mike
Thank you for the response, Mike.
I'm told the cymbals are from the 50's.
Would you mind elaborating on why you wouldn't modify the cymbals, please?
Will a larger hole ruin the sound, or make it less valuable, or...?
Thanks.
Jack
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  #4  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:55 PM
Sweets Sweets is offline
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Default Re: Newby needs help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Boyd View Post
Will a larger hole ruin the sound, or make it less valuable, or...?
Thanks.
Jack
Possibly the first, definitely the latter. And itís just a shame in general really, to experiment on older cymbals.
I would suggest you find an older stand, or trade the cymbal towards something that fits your current ones.
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  #5  
Old 12-20-2017, 02:44 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Newby needs help

Since the most common of the 1950s cymbals are Avedis Zildjian here's the story on those:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/holes.html

But then it might also be an Istanbul K Zildjian, or even an Italian cymbal. Those are the other ones I know of first hand which had smaller holes in the 1950s.

If you are going to drill the hole to 1/2" then you need to do it accurately and cleanly. I can't say how much (if any) value is lost by enlarging the hole cleanly. The reduction in value is smaller than I've been able to pick up in my research. People believe it lowers the value to them personally, perhaps in the same way that keyhole and edge dings and rivet holes do. That might be true in the general cymbal buying population, it's just that measuring the effect has proven difficult.


If you do a poor job of hole enlarging then this will likely decrease the value a bit. Again it's hard to say by how much. My initial attempts at looking at change in price by condition gave a less than clear view.



This is for K Zildjian Istanbul New Stamps and shows that cymbals I've coded Excellent and Good have the same price distribution, and Fair are a little bit lower. Poor (which is what you might turn yours into if you don't enlarge the hole cleanly) drops the expected median value $200 or so. Trashed is a category used for basically unplayable cymbals. But the complexity is that value changes by condition are different for New Stamps, Old Stamps, and Intermediate Stamps, and different again for other brands of cymbals.

There are some cymbals (K Zildjian Istanbul Old Stamps) which are worth more than the prices you see in that graph. There are others which are worth less. How much potential value you lose depends on what sort of cymbal it is. If you post pictures of yours I can give some guidance, or you can follow the links in my signature which will take you to my methods for identification and price estimates.

I don't particularly encourage people to enlarge holes, but I believe you deserve as much quality information as possible in making up your own mind. If these cymbals are to be used in Coffee House gigs where you don't bring your own cymbal stands then having a 7/16" hole does make life difficult. If you always bring your own cymbal cymbal stands then we can supply you with a list of the brands and models which accommodate 7/16" mounting holes, and methods to modify some brands to deal with 7/16" mounting holes.

As far as a change in sound goes I wouldn't expect any change from enlarging the mounting hole. As an experiment I enlarged the mounting hole on one of my 1950s Italian (UFiP) cymbals. It was not free to move easily on a modern cymbal stand. After enlarging the hole it moved freely on a modern stand and the sound shifted to be slightly washier and it opened up into a crash more easily. I've got plenty of cymbal stands which do take small hole cymbals so I already knew what it would sound like when it moved freely. After the enlarging of the mounting hole it sounded the same on the stands which accommodate small holes. I do a few experiments on cymbals so I can document the results.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 12-20-2017 at 03:05 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2017, 05:09 PM
steff steff is online now
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Default Re: Newby needs help

seems incredible but enlarging the hole a few microns the sound changes, if you like the sound not touch it, instead if you do not like the sound try it maybe improves ... my experience is not said to be a universal rule
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2017, 06:59 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Newby needs help

Quote:
Originally Posted by steff View Post
seems incredible but enlarging the hole a few microns the sound changes, if you like the sound not touch it, instead if you do not like the sound try it maybe improves ... my experience is not said to be a universal rule
So are you saying you enlarged a 7/16" mounting hole to 1/2" on a cymbal and it changed the sound? Did you use the same cymbal stand before and after the change in hole size? Did the cymbal stand handle a 7/16" mounting hole allowing the cymbal to move freely? What cymbals have you tried this on?

A properly controlled experiment requires the same cymbal stand to be used before and after. Otherwise the change in stand (including any part of the stand) could be the cause of any sonic change. Obviously you also have to use the same sticks, same force in playing, and same room acoustics. There are lots of factors at play and isolating just the effect of a 1/16" (1.6mm) increase in the diameter of the hole is difficult.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:36 PM
steff steff is online now
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Default Re: Newby needs help

I have enlarged the hole of a 20" Kerope in total 1mm and the sound on the same position, completely free on the stand, has changed a lot, I do not know on a hi hat probably the difference can be less
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:47 PM
steff steff is online now
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Default Re: Newby needs help

^^

I no longer have that cymbal but I remember that the sound was improved, more clear and controllable, with only 1mm difference, I was used to that sound and I immediately realized the big difference ... so much so that for a moment I had thought of enlarging it even more
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  #10  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:58 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Newby needs help

Thanks steff. A Kerope would have had a modern sized 1/2" hole already so it would have moved freely on either a modern or vintage stand. Can you describe how the sound changed? I know it is hard to put cymbal sounds to words, but I am curious.

I've got a pre serial Paiste 602 18" with an enlarged hole like that, but it came to me that way so I don't know if it changed the sound. There is a claim that some manufacturers use a larger than 1/2" hole on marching band cymbals to make it easier to put thick straps through, but I haven't ever checked that out. It might just be the sort of thing sellers say to explain a hole which was enlarged for some other reason. Like sellers who claim a cymbal with bad keyhole must be a great sounding cymbal because that is a sign it was played a lot. As far as I know it is just a sign that it was played without proper protection from the steel of the cymbal stand.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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