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  #1  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:30 AM
jojo_berlin jojo_berlin is offline
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Default 50s Avedis large stamp - what do you think?

Hi all,
I am new to this forum - so first of all: Hey everybody!
I am a jazz drummer, who just recently came back to drumming after 15 years of a creative break. Before I was mostly playing rock, now I discovered Jazz for myself and also the beautiful and unique sound of the vintage cymbals.
Most of the threads here are about stamp/age-identifaction, this one is about the sound! First of all, my setup:

- Gretsch Cataline Jazz Club
- Ludwig supraphonic (70"s)
- 60s Avedis 15" Hi-Hats (890/910g)
- 50' Avedis 18" Crash/Ride (1270g)
- 50s ssa Avedis 20" Crash/Ride (1810g)
- 50"s Avedis 20" large stamp (1940g)
- 50's Avedis 22" Trixon ssa (2570g)
- New Constantinople 20" (1940g)

This is about the 50's large stamp, that I got fairly cheap for 120 Euro (considering that the prices in Germany are almost double as high than in the US).
I turned this cymbal into a sizzle, drilling three holes. I am just not sure about the sound, so I need some feedback from all of you. I am quite new to jazz and cymbalholism, so I am still on a learning curve.
To my opinion all of those Avedis have a different sound characteristic and I guess it has something to do with the progresses and changes in manufacturing in the 50s and 60s. It's not easy to find a real germ to my opinion...
So here is a soundfile and I am curious about your opinion. Btw. I love the sound of that constantiople! I guess if I had the money I would go for the old K's, but there are just out of reach for me.
Here is a soundfile of the 20" Avedis I was talking about:


https://soundcloud.com/jochen-resch/...ii-solo-pt1wav

Please dont judge my playing...)
I also attached some pics.

Thanks a lot!!!!
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  #2  
Old 06-18-2017, 10:45 AM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: 50s Avedis large stamp - what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo_berlin View Post
Hi all,
I am new to this forum - so first of all: Hey everybody!
I am a jazz drummer, who just recently came back to drumming after 15 years of a creative break. Before I was mostly playing rock, now I discovered Jazz for myself and also the beautiful and unique sound of the vintage cymbals.
Most of the threads here are about stamp/age-identifaction, this one is about the sound! First of all, my setup:

- Gretsch Cataline Jazz Club
- Ludwig supraphonic (70"s)
- 60s Avedis 15" Hi-Hats (890/910g)
- 50' Avedis 18" Crash/Ride (1270g)
- 50s ssa Avedis 20" Crash/Ride (1810g)
- 50"s Avedis 20" large stamp (1940g)
- 50's Avedis 22" Trixon ssa (2570g)
- New Constantinople 20" (1940g)

This is about the 50's large stamp, that I got fairly cheap for 120 Euro (considering that the prices in Germany are almost double as high than in the US).
I turned this cymbal into a sizzle, drilling three holes. I am just not sure about the sound, so I need some feedback from all of you. I am quite new to jazz and cymbalholism, so I am still on a learning curve.
To my opinion all of those Avedis have a different sound characteristic and I guess it has something to do with the progresses and changes in manufacturing in the 50s and 60s. It's not easy to find a real germ to my opinion...
So here is a soundfile and I am curious about your opinion. Btw. I love the sound of that constantiople! I guess if I had the money I would go for the old K's, but there are just out of reach for me.
Here is a soundfile of the 20" Avedis I was talking about:


https://soundcloud.com/jochen-resch/...ii-solo-pt1wav

Please dont judge my playing...)
I also attached some pics.

Thanks a lot!!!!
to the Vintage Drum Forum. I was listening to your sound file via ear buds on my smartphone, but I thought it seemed to be an appropriate sounding cymbal for jazz. It actually sounded on the dark side for a 50's A, and that's a good thing. The bell sounded good and the wash didn't overwhelm the sticking which sounded appropriately woody and not too metallic. I didn't hear anything bad and in general it's a very nice sounding cymbal to my ears. Of course opinions vary, and the quality and accuracy of cymbal sound files depends on the mics, the acoustics of the recording space, the sticks and the player, but in the end, if it sounds good to your ears, I'd say you've got a keeper. I've heard some pretty terrible sounding cymbals in sound files. This cymbal was definitely not one of those. By the way, what is the weight in grams? In any case enjoy it, and welcome to the world of jazz.
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Last edited by BosLover; 06-18-2017 at 11:07 AM.
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  #3  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:24 PM
Drumaholic Drumaholic is offline
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Posts: 1,936
Default Re: 50s Avedis large stamp - what do you think?

Nice one. That era has produced more winners than the other large stamps in my opinion. Also the ordering of the 3 types has changed from what it was based on latest research. The "no-dots" types seem to be the ones that are most often choice sounding.
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  #4  
Old 06-18-2017, 06:38 PM
jojo_berlin jojo_berlin is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 4
Default Re: 50s Avedis large stamp - what do you think?

Thanks a lot for your your feedback! This seems to be a nice forum, and yes, Jazz definitely changed my life to some extend, especially the sound of those old cymbals. Still have to convince my wife about that buying/selling thing..
The weight in grams is 1940g.

Last edited by jojo_berlin; 06-18-2017 at 06:41 PM.
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  #5  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:47 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,570
Default Re: 50s Avedis large stamp - what do you think?

Yes JoJo.

Thanks for the weight and price info. That is a little below the median weight for a 20" from the Large Stamp era. Some can be a bit heavier but yours is not. I'm not surprised it sounds so nice. I haven't listened to a large enough sample of cymbals wearing the three different types of Large Stamp trademark so I can't comment on which tend to be "choice sounding". But I trust Drumaholic's ears.

Based on 25 weights for Large Stamps the median weight is around 2000g, but about a quarter of them are over 2300g. I've got one which is around 2320g and has a bit more ping than yours. Mine also seems relatively dark considering the weight. There are also a couple which are under 1750g and they tend to fetch higher prices.

The median price for 20" Large Stamps is sitting at about $200 in the USA. Note this is a little different from what I reported a year ago because I've got more data now. But I still don't really have enough data to get reliable stable estimates for Large Stamp prices reported separately. Just glimpses at this point.

The pricing on Large Stamps is a little tricky to interpret because the Hartrick Large Stamp Type I (aka Hollow Block) is fairly distinctive and well recognized, but the Type II and Type III are often misidentified as 60s or 70s (depending on whether they have the three dots in a triangle or not). It looks like the Hollow Blocks go a little higher on prices, but that might just be because buyers are bidding on the other Large Stamps as if they are 60s or 70s cymbals. I can't peer into the mind of a buyer and know if they are willing to pay what they are based on correct identification of the production era. All I've been able to do so far is try and improve the level of documentation and give objective ways to tell the different trademark stamps apart from photos. And since early 2016 I've kept careful track of what the seller says the stamp is versus what I think it is for every sale. So I'm starting to be able to report on which stamps are most often confused. If you believe that I get my identifications correct, of course.

I've also recorded the Trixon stamp on cymbals from Trans Stamps (Hartrick Type III) and the 3 different Large Stamps. I've got one 18" Large Stamp (Type II) which has the Trixon above. Sometimes the Trixon is above the Zildjian stamp and sometimes it is below. I don't know if that correlates with different production periods, or just different artistic choices by the person who put the Trixon on there. I don't have a large enough sample size to make any generalizations.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #6  
Old 06-19-2017, 09:24 AM
jojo_berlin jojo_berlin is offline
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Default Re: 50s Avedis large stamp - what do you think?

HI Zen..nice to see you here as well. Its good to talk about the Sound now, since your work is a phantastic Guideline to identify the age of those vintage Zildjian cymbals, at least in most cases. Btw...this is the cymbal I asked you about dirilling the holes, so here is the result.
I will also post soundfile of that 20" ssa, which is very, very different in sound, very "wet" and higher pitched, complex, even though 100g lighter in weight. It feels and looks like it is made out of a different material or formula. I cant't tell which one I love more, but they both match wonderful with the Constantinople, which is much dryer and darker.
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