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Old 11-08-2017, 11:04 AM
ardrummer ardrummer is offline
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Default Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

Anybody have any info on this old Zildjian 18" crash ride? I'm not familiar with vintage Zildjians have the ink stamp on them.
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2017, 12:18 PM
mlayton mlayton is online now
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

Some ink stamps were put on by Zildjian and some were actually stamped by the stores that sold them. That type of ink stamp is much like that on some cymbals that I've owned from the 50's. I'd speculate that it is a Zildjian stamp. The actual stamp in the cymbal itself will tell us more about the cymbal.

Mike
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:17 PM
ardrummer ardrummer is offline
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlayton View Post
Some ink stamps were put on by Zildjian and some were actually stamped by the stores that sold them. That type of ink stamp is much like that on some cymbals that I've owned from the 50's. I'd speculate that it is a Zildjian stamp. The actual stamp in the cymbal itself will tell us more about the cymbal.

Mike
Thanks for the info. Any idea of the value if it is from the 50's? I will post a better pic of the hard stamp when I get it.

Last edited by ardrummer; 11-08-2017 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:55 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

Model and weight class ink like that goes back to the 1930s with A Zildjians. It's just that most cymbals have lost their ink and there is a misunderstanding that ink doesn't go back that far. See:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#ink

See also this recent thread which includes a dump of all the model and weight ink I've recorded on 18" A Zildjians plus associated weights plus a link expected prices (also in my signature).

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=60539

That particular ink is a standard looking font used by Zildjian, although as I mention in that other thread I haven't yet got evidence to pin down specific years of use. Yours could be 50s or 60s. Also yours does not have the larger CRASH RIDE model bell. That doesn't mean it isn't a CRASH RIDE model. It may just mean that it was produced before the CRASH RIDE model got a larger bell. Or that the specs were just variable in the factory.

One of the factors in determining production era for yours is the detail of the trademark stamp. I'd be interested in a close up of the one on yours. And you can help my research by providing the weight. As you can see in that other thread I don't yet have a weight for a CRASH RIDE in the 18" size.

Hope this helps.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 11-08-2017 at 02:07 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-08-2017, 02:01 PM
ardrummer ardrummer is offline
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
See this recent thread which includes a dump of all the model and weight ink I've recorded on 18" A Zildjians plus associated weights plus expected prices.

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=60539

That particular ink is a standard looking font used by Zildjian, although as I mention in that other thread I haven't yet got evidence to pin down specific years of use. Also yours does not have the larger CRASH RIDE model bell. That doesn't mean it isn't a CRASH RIDE model. It may just mean that it was produced before the CRASH RIDE model got a larger bell.

One of the factors in determining production era is the detail of the trademark stamp. I'd be interested in a close up of the one on yours.
Great info! Thanks!
I will make sure and post better pics of the the cymbal and hard stamp when I get it. I will also get the weight.

Last edited by ardrummer; 11-08-2017 at 02:10 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-15-2017, 06:02 PM
ardrummer ardrummer is offline
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Model and weight class ink like that goes back to the 1930s with A Zildjians. It's just that most cymbals have lost their ink and there is a misunderstanding that ink doesn't go back that far. See:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#ink

See also this recent thread which includes a dump of all the model and weight ink I've recorded on 18" A Zildjians plus associated weights plus a link expected prices (also in my signature).

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=60539

That particular ink is a standard looking font used by Zildjian, although as I mention in that other thread I haven't yet got evidence to pin down specific years of use. Yours could be 50s or 60s. Also yours does not have the larger CRASH RIDE model bell. That doesn't mean it isn't a CRASH RIDE model. It may just mean that it was produced before the CRASH RIDE model got a larger bell. Or that the specs were just variable in the factory.

One of the factors in determining production era for yours is the detail of the trademark stamp. I'd be interested in a close up of the one on yours. And you can help my research by providing the weight. As you can see in that other thread I don't yet have a weight for a CRASH RIDE in the 18" size.

Hope this helps.
Weight is 1335 grams. Here are some pics
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  #7  
Old 11-15-2017, 06:57 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

That trademark die stamp is the late 1950s Small Stamp (SSB die, although there is a growing suspicion that there is a 3rd die tentatively called... SSC). Exciting names. You can read up on that here:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#small

The lathing on the bottom shows some spots where there is oven crust left which is something more common in the 50s than the 60s. The bell shows medium to coarse lathe lines which is different from what is found on most cymbals which have a Small Stamp. Most small stamps have at least one section of fine tonal grooves



in contrast to most cymbals with a 60s stamp which have more coarse tonal grooves particularly in the mid and bottom section.



The contrast is even more pronounced by the 1970s when the lathing is more consistent (over the whole cymbal not just the bell).



The current hypothesis is that the SSC die is associated with bell lathing as found on yours, but I haven't tested that notion yet.

The bell lathing on yours is more common in the 1960s, although it has been recorded on a small proportion of cymbals with late 50s small stamps.

Since this thread started I've got a record of a later CRASH RIDE with a weight of 1370g, later ink style (one piece with hyphen), and with a 60s stamp on it. This one has the 5.5" diameter crash ride bell (which is shared with crashes from that period).



__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 11-15-2017 at 07:27 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:32 PM
ardrummer ardrummer is offline
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

Great info! So you are thinking this is a late 50's cymbal then?
Just measured it...it is a 17" cymbal....they had it listed as a 18"
Not sure how much this makes a difference on the dating of the cymbal.

Last edited by ardrummer; 11-15-2017 at 07:45 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:58 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

No difference in dating. Yes late 50s. 17" cymbals were around in the 50s. Being a 17" explains a smaller diameter bell on yours. I've recorded a 3.5" diameter bell on 17" cymbals from the mid 50s , although there might also be 4" (same die as used on 14" 15" and 16" cymbals). And sometimes Zildjian do something unexpected like put a 5" bell on a 16" cymbal. But generally there are one or two bell dies used for any particular diameter, and one specific bell die used for one specific model. I'm still trying to sort it all out.

I bought a 21" late 50s which shrunk in the mail and was only a 20" when it arrived. But it sounds so nice I didn't complain to the seller.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #10  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:32 AM
ardrummer ardrummer is offline
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Default Re: Old Zildjian with Ink Stamp

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
No difference in dating. Yes late 50s. 17" cymbals were around in the 50s. Being a 17" explains a smaller diameter bell on yours. I've recorded a 3.5" diameter bell on 17" cymbals from the mid 50s , although there might also be 4" (same die as used on 14" 15" and 16" cymbals). And sometimes Zildjian do something unexpected like put a 5" bell on a 16" cymbal. But generally there are one or two bell dies used for any particular diameter, and one specific bell die used for one specific model. I'm still trying to sort it all out.

I bought a 21" late 50s which shrunk in the mail and was only a 20" when it arrived. But it sounds so nice I didn't complain to the seller.
Thanks so much for your time and info! I'm not too upset about the size difference...like your situation, the cymbal still sounds great!
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