Vintage Drum Forum the best vintage drum forum on the Internet - Vintage Drum History - Vintage Drum Questions

Go Back   Vintage Drum Forum > Vintage Cymbals

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 11-04-2017, 11:48 PM
BosLover BosLover is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 935
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
I don't see it that way myself. I see enough 60s stamp diagnostics, including the 3 dots.

I also see factory rivet flaring vs post factory rivet flaring, although that isn't 100% diagnostic. All we can say is that the flaring pattern is consistent with factory. Some drum shops may have purchased whatever the special tool the Zildjian factory used to get the flare pattern. The other thing to check is that the holes are evenly spaced and exactly 1" in from the edge.

As far as price goes here are my published prices for the 20" size:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-prices.html#20

As you can see it doesn't really matter to price whether it is judged a 60s or a 70s produced cymbal. Same for the 22" size if you scroll up on that link. Based on 17 sales of 21" cymbals from the 60s and 70s, the expected median price is $150, which sits as expected between the 20" and 22" prices. Not that you buy cymbals by the inch.

I haven't done any specific analysis to look at the effect of removing rivets on the expected price. I've recorded thousands of cymbal sales to get reliable statistics, but in order to simplify my data entry task I haven't kept detailed records of the rivet status of each cymbal (eg 8 holes but only 4 rivets in place). That's a bit too nerdy even for me. I do note other aspects of condition, but that's usually not about rivet detail. Prices are variable enough that it takes good sized representative samples to get reliable estimates. Obscure details like number of missing rivets and an effect on price are not going to be easy to pick up given all the other variation in play.

As to the question of it looking exactly like a Rock Ride: 21" cymbals have been around since at least the Trans Stamp era, and they are common enough from the 1960s. Rock Rides came in at 1973 so I wouldn't expect to find many with a 1960s trademark -- although who knows for sure. There is a difference in bell size (diameter and height) between the 21" Rock Ride and the 21" Medium Ride. Bigger on the Rock. Scaling the bell on this one from the image (not super accurate) it looks like a 5" Medium Ride bell not a larger 6" Rock Ride bell. And on that note, Longjohn it would be great to get an accurate measurement of the bell on your 21" 70s Rock Ride. I've got one 6" measurement but a second confirmation would be great.

Yes it would be useful to know the weight, although that's not definitive either. I've got 48 weights recorded in my database for 21" A Zildjian cymbals from the Trans Stamp era to present, but I haven't done a proper analysis. Where they have model ink I can get specific models, but yes most older ones have the model ink missing. The Trans Stamps (and the recently launched A Avedis series) are light: 2072g - 2338g. Then there are plenty of 50s and 60s ones in the range 2350g - 2540g (including modern Sweet Rides). 60s and 70s come in at 2600g - 2850g, and then there are those Rock Rides 2900g - 3350g. These are just preliminary results subject to refinement when I get to it.
I downloaded it, rotated it, and enlarged it, and it very definitely a '60's cymbal as you guys indicated. I wish I had done that BEFORE my earlier post.
__________________
Mark
BosLover
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-05-2017, 01:27 AM
longjohn longjohn is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,125
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

Zenstat, Yes you are correct with 6" bell on the Rock Ride.. pretty sure purchased around 1977.. I'll weigh it at the PO tomorrow and let you know the weight too. (Need to do this anyhow as it will be up for sale soon)

Cheers
John
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-05-2017, 08:18 PM
longjohn longjohn is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,125
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

Zenstat.. The 70's Rock Ride falls right into your latter range at 3290 grams.


Cheers
John
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-06-2017, 01:37 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,342
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

Quote:
Originally Posted by longjohn View Post
Zenstat.. The 70's Rock Ride falls right into your latter range at 3290 grams.


Cheers
John
Thanks for the follow up. I'm slowly building up my database of weights one cymbal at a time. The goal is a page for each model for vintage (and modern) Zildjians where I can present such details as are known, like this page:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/PADLR.html

Yet another way to organize information. I got the idea from the Paiste Only Wiki, which alas has gone down -- hopefully temporarily.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-06-2017, 04:39 AM
FFR428 FFR428 is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CT.
Posts: 5,266
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

John/Steve do one of you know the basic difference between the 70's version of 21" Rock Ride and Rock 21"? I had a couple Rock 21's with the factory ink stamp. Yet I also see 70's A's stamped Rock Ride in 21" and other sizes. Weight seems to differ a bit but have seen both light and heavy versions of the Rock Ride. I have been told and have read the Rock 21" was the heavier one of the 2 lines? The one 21" I have now is 3072 grams. Big bell beauty.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	rock21inkstamp.jpg
Views:	10
Size:	92.2 KB
ID:	113746   Click image for larger version

Name:	post-116-0-88033500-1443539667.jpg
Views:	10
Size:	87.1 KB
ID:	113747   Click image for larger version

Name:	rock21!.jpg
Views:	10
Size:	82.9 KB
ID:	113748   Click image for larger version

Name:	Rock213.jpg
Views:	8
Size:	83.4 KB
ID:	113749  

__________________
Glenn.

Not a guru just havin fun with some old dusty drums.

www.dgncustomguitars.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-06-2017, 02:16 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,342
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

I haven't been able to sort out the difference between the Rock 21 and the 21" Rock Ride. This is what Zildjian had to say (from a 1976 glossary of cymbal types):



So it looks like reading between the lines, the Rock 21 was a bit heaver in terms of target weight, and the bell was a bit taller but may have been the same diameter.

In the big list of model introductions and deletions from 1970 to 2017 the Rock line consists of:

Rock Ride: 20", 21"
Rock Crash: 16", 17", 18", 19"
Rock Hi Hats: 14", 15"

and appears in 1973. The advertising with patriotic colors and theme you attached is associated with the 1976 bicentennial of the USA. I've got examples of ads and that ink for all 3 types. I don't know when that specific bicentennial ink style started, and how long it lasted. The model intro document doesn't specifically mention a Rock 21 anywhere, and so far it remains a bit of mystery.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-06-2017, 04:17 PM
longjohn longjohn is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,125
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

Glenn, Ink has long gone from mine but it just had the plain text Rock Ride print.

Cheers
John
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	rOCK rIDE.jpg
Views:	9
Size:	24.2 KB
ID:	113756  
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:55 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,342
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

On present evidence:

Model ink without the diameter info underneath is generally from before 1982 (but I don't know the beginning year yet).

Solid Zildjian ink (without an or Avedis) is from the period late 1982 to 1992.

Hollow ink Zildjian (just on the bottom) is 1978 to the middle of 1982.

That ROCK RIDE with that ink pattern might have a 70s stamp and might have a CO stamp. It was a time of change and not all things changed in lock step. The trouble is that so much ink has gone missing that it takes hundreds of examples to try and pin down associations and years.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-07-2017, 05:03 AM
FFR428 FFR428 is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CT.
Posts: 5,266
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

John/Steve thanks so very much for the info gents! I have a soft spot for the Rock 21's and thought the history on them was kind of interesting. Cool ink stamp too.

Mark sorry for getting things a bit off topic here!
__________________
Glenn.

Not a guru just havin fun with some old dusty drums.

www.dgncustomguitars.com
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-10-2017, 09:12 AM
Dongrant3 Dongrant3 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6
Default Re: Please help identify Zildjian 21 sizzle ride

Great info. Appreciate all the feedback, and love all that data! Im going to find a creative way to weight the cymbal and will update this thread when done.

Don
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2009 VSDwebdesign