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Old 11-01-2017, 07:45 AM
Black Label Black Label is offline
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Default Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

Hi there - please can someone help me ID these what appears to be vintage A Zildjian hats. All I know is that they are Zildjian and they are 15". The seller is about 1800km away from me so I cannot view. The stamp appears to be quite polished off but from its remnants, with the deep indents, could they be trans stamps?? What do you guys think?
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Last edited by Black Label; 11-01-2017 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:16 AM
Black Label Black Label is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

I just recieved some stamp pics - looks like they are trans stamps. What do you think?
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  #3  
Old 11-01-2017, 09:08 AM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Label View Post
Hi there - please can someone help me ID these what appears to be vintage A Zildjian hats. All I know is that they are Zildjian and they are 15". The seller is about 1800km away from me so I cannot view. The stamp appears to be quite polished off but from its remnants, with the deep indents, could they be trans stamps?? What do you guys think?
It look like a trans stamp, but my concern is what appears to be a brilliant finish on the tops of the cymbals. Maybe its just the photos and the lighting, but I don't think that finish could have been achieved just by cleaning alone. They look buffed and polished, possibly by a power tool. That alone would make me pass on them unless I had the right to return them.
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Last edited by BosLover; 11-01-2017 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:57 AM
Black Label Black Label is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

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Originally Posted by BosLover View Post
It look like a trans stamp, but my concern is what appears to be a brilliant finish on the tops of the cymbals. Maybe its just the photos and the lighting, but I don't think that finish could have been achieved just by cleaning alone. They look buffed and polished, possibly by a power tool. That alone would make me pass on them unless I had the right to return them.
Hi there Mark - I will unfortunately not have the option to return them but I will be paying a relatively low price for them (around USD 100) so it is probably worth the gamble - what would the effect of buffing / polishing be on the hats? Why should that be a concern?
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Old 11-01-2017, 12:35 PM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

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Originally Posted by Black Label View Post
Hi there Mark - I will unfortunately not have the option to return them but I will be paying a relatively low price for them (around USD 100) so it is probably worth the gamble - what would the effect of buffing / polishing be on the hats? Why should that be a concern?
Vintage cymbal desirability and value is tied to condition. Use of harsh and abrasive chemicals and aggresive cleaning and polishing procedures can damage the cymbal, altering the sound and lowering the value and desirability. I'm a big fan of trans stamps. This pair may be just fine and the pictures may be deceiving, but if that's what they truly look like in person, it would set off alarm bells in my mind since I don't know how they got that way. As a result, I personally would pass this deal by if I couldn't return them. I'm sure others will chime in with opinions which may differ from mine. If you don't mind taking a gamble, go for it.
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Last edited by BosLover; 11-01-2017 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:17 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BosLover View Post
It look like a trans stamp, but my concern is what appears to be a brilliant finish on the tops of the cymbals. Maybe its just the photos and the lighting, but I don't think that finish could have been achieved just by cleaning alone. They look buffed and polished, possibly by a power tool. That alone would make me pass on them unless I had the right to return them.
An often overlooked quote from Pinksterboer (1992), The Cymbal Book, p82:

Quote:
Zildjian applied buffing before World War II.
So this has been known for 25 years now. It's in footnote 4 on page 82 and unfortunately not indexed, and I think many people have missed it. In addition to the evidence from Pinksterboer's interview, I've recorded dozens of late 30s to mid 50s buffed cymbals, although buffed may have fallen out of popularity between the later 1950s and the 1970s. It is a persistent internet myth that brilliant finish and/or model ink somehow indicate a 1970s or later production era. Model ink started in the 1930s, and so did buffed cymbals. I think the problem is just that nobody kept track of enough cymbals to document the numbers of cymbals with ink and with buffed finishes. Or if somebody else has been keeping track, they haven't made their results public.

Of course if most buyers believe that buffing means modified after leaving the factory that could lower the price, even if it is contrary to the evidence. However, at $100 that pair of Trans Stamp cymbals is below half price special. That more than makes up for the expected drop in price due to potential buyers believing the cymbals are "modified". Smaller differences in condition don't have anything like the same magnitude of influence on price which being from the Trans Stamp era does. Production era dominates expected price compared to both weight and condition, although there is a small additional effect of both factors once you account for era. I'm still working through the detailed statistical modelling of condition taking other factors into account but we're looking at more like 5%-10% lower expected prices for small condition issues. Which I would claim this pair doesn't have anyway. Your opinion may vary. I've had no end of problems with condition because it is subjective and I haven't got a good enough scale. Still working it through.

From my price tracking:

15" Pairs
  • Trans Stamp (and earlier): Expected median price $280 with half selling for between $200 and $325 n=21
  • Large and Small Stamps (mid to late 50s): Expected median price $225 with half selling for between $200 and $246 n=22
  • 1960s: Expected median price $175 with half selling for between $150 and $226 n=32
  • 1970s: Expected median price $200 with half selling for between $167 and $230 n=15
  • 1980s: Expected median price $175 with half selling for between $150 and $175 n=9

15" Singles
  • Trans Stamp (and earlier): Expected median price $127 with half selling for between $79 and $150 n=17
  • Large and Small Stamps (mid to late 50s): Expected median price $90 with half selling for between $87 and $118 n=6
  • 1960s: Expected median price $72 with half selling for between $51 and $90 n=11
  • 1970s: Expected median price $125 with half selling for between $107 and $130 small sample warning n=3
  • 1980s: Expected median price $100 but very small sample warning: n=1

You don't have to take my word for it. All of my raw data and supporting photos are available free on request if anybody wants to check out my interpretation for themselves.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 11-01-2017 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 11:25 PM
BosLover BosLover is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
An often overlooked quote from Pinksterboer (1992), The Cymbal Book, p82:



So this has been known for 25 years now. It's in footnote 4 on page 82 and unfortunately not indexed, and I think many people have missed it. In addition to the evidence from Pinksterboer's interview, I've recorded dozens of late 30s to mid 50s buffed cymbals, although buffed may have fallen out of popularity between the later 1950s and the 1970s. It is a persistent internet myth that brilliant finish and/or model ink somehow indicate a 1970s or later production era. Model ink started in the 1930s, and so did buffed cymbals. I think the problem is just that nobody kept track of enough cymbals to document the numbers of cymbals with ink and with buffed finishes. Or if somebody else has been keeping track, they haven't made their results public.

Of course if most buyers believe that buffing means modified after leaving the factory that could lower the price, even if it is contrary to the evidence. However, at $100 that pair of Trans Stamp cymbals is below half price special. That more than makes up for the expected drop in price due to potential buyers believing the cymbals are "modified". Smaller differences in condition don't have anything like the same magnitude of influence on price which being from the Trans Stamp era does. Production era dominates expected price compared to both weight and condition, although there is a small additional effect of both factors once you account for era. I'm still working through the detailed statistical modelling of condition taking other factors into account but we're looking at more like 5%-10% lower expected prices for small condition issues. Which I would claim this pair doesn't have anyway. Your opinion may vary. I've had no end of problems with condition because it is subjective and I haven't got a good enough scale. Still working it through.

From my price tracking:

15" Pairs
  • Trans Stamp (and earlier): Expected median price $280 with half selling for between $200 and $325 n=21
  • Large and Small Stamps (mid to late 50s): Expected median price $225 with half selling for between $200 and $246 n=22
  • 1960s: Expected median price $175 with half selling for between $150 and $226 n=32
  • 1970s: Expected median price $200 with half selling for between $167 and $230 n=15
  • 1980s: Expected median price $175 with half selling for between $150 and $175 n=9

15" Singles
  • Trans Stamp (and earlier): Expected median price $127 with half selling for between $79 and $150 n=17
  • Large and Small Stamps (mid to late 50s): Expected median price $90 with half selling for between $87 and $118 n=6
  • 1960s: Expected median price $72 with half selling for between $51 and $90 n=11
  • 1970s: Expected median price $125 with half selling for between $107 and $130 small sample warning n=3
  • 1980s: Expected median price $100 but very small sample warning: n=1

You don't have to take my word for it. All of my raw data and supporting photos are available free on request if anybody wants to check out my interpretation for themselves.
I am not disputing that these cymbals may have been brilliantly buffed when new. But it unlikely that after 65 years that what we're seeing in the photos is the original shine, especially since the underside has a dark patina. And if the bright shine is not original the question is when and how, and how often, was it buffed since it was new and how abrasive was the process. Now these cymbals may be way under priced, but a combination of the obvious buffing, the worn stamps and the low price makes me concerned. They may be well worth the equivalent of $100 USD or more, but do they retain all the qualities that make trans stamps so desirable in the first place. If they don't then they would be worthless to me even if they were free. My whole point was not that these cymbals have necessarily be altered, but that their condition raises questions.
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Last edited by BosLover; 11-01-2017 at 11:31 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-02-2017, 08:24 AM
Black Label Black Label is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

As for the low price - in South Africa there's hardly a vintage market to speak about so "old" drum gear sell for cheap. As a matter of interest, what is it that makes the Trans Stamps so desirable? I did not but them because they were trans stamps, btw, i would have bought them if they were any stamps for that matter as I am a raging cymbalholic with absolutely no self-restraint and I would lie awake about these at night unless I buy them or someone else does before me - it's a terrible fate that I have to suffer
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  #9  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:21 AM
Black Label Black Label is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

Hi there - these hats arrived today. I was blown away - to say that they are in mint condition, is an understatement. There is not so much as a roughness around the edges - they are as good as brand new. I don't know where they were kept for 60 odd years but they were not played much I don't think - and herein lies the problem:

I am at work now so cannot weight them (or play them for that matter and will do both when I get home later) but they are EXTREMELY thin / light - I have 2 other pairs of 15" A hats, both in the 800 - 900 gram range, and these are considerably lighter. They are bendable and the stamps show through on the bottom of the cymbal, they are so thin! So the problem is, I don't know whether I should actually use them (and maybe that is what the previous owners thought too). I'm not a gorilla with sticks at all and have reasonably good technique, but I think these things are candidates for breaking unless i play them with 7A Regal Tips, which I don't use. I have truly never in my life come across such thin cymbals.

Anyway - will weigh and (lightly) play them this evening and will report back. Maybe I'll make a quick video and post it here for your info!!

Cheers and chat later
Erik
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  #10  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:07 AM
Black Label Black Label is offline
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Default Re: Please help ID Vintage Zildjian Hi Hats

Ok I weighed them 780 / 850
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