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Old 08-08-2019, 03:53 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,718
Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Originally Posted by Aussievintagedrumuser View Post
I stand corrected Paiste DID indeed start using serial numbers from 1971,
It 's on there website,
Other forums,
I rest my case.
I think you need a better case.

Other forums:

What is on other forums (including this one) is not evidence by itself. It is the same misinformation repeated over and over again, sometimes with details lost in paraphrasing. Evidence is when somebody gives full and proper documentation of a cymbal with a serial number starting with the digit 1 (6 digits, no prefix) and demonstrates why other attributes exclude 1981 as the production year. When that happens we update the wiki accordingly.

"It 's on there [SIC] website"

Link to the specific page please. I don't see anything which explicitly says "6 digit serial numbers started in 1971" on the Pasite web site. Or did you mean some other site?

Are you aware that there is a version of the 2002 embossed stamp which predates the version most people are familiar with? It has a border around it, and appears to predate the more common version. It also has a different cross hatch pattern on the crescent moon.

Current thinking is that it predates the more common version (on stylistic and other grounds like appearance on pre serial 2002s). The existence of this variation means every report of a leading digit 1 on a 2002 now needs to be rechecked to see which version of the embossed stamp it has. This is one of a dozen lines of evidence which informs the latest serial number research based on cymbals which actually exist.

The same sort of thing applies to the 602 embossed logo where we have gone from just one, to over 5. We have also gone from "602s weren't made in Germany" to examples of the Made in Germany embossed stamp.

There are ink changes and other information on some models which allow us to be more accurate in distinguishing 1971 from 1981 cymbals (independent of the serial number). Here is a Sound Edge example of the next level of analysis. Sound Edge hats start out life with a patent list on the bottom. This list changes a bit over time as patents are taken out in different countries. When I come across a Black Label 2002 which has 1 as the first digit I can tell it is 1981 because of which patent list it has. For 602s the situation is easier now that we have a better established order for when the model ink and diameter ink went from red to black (which didn't happen at the same time for all 602 models).

Very detailed analysis and large data sets why we now believe serial numbers came in mid 1972 rather than 1971. That pattern of introduction of changes a year or two after the decade start and a few months into the year is a repeated Paiste pattern over the years. It also happens to be a repeated pattern for Zildjian cymbals.

We have moved on a long way due to a group of dedicated researchers. The internet (including drum forums) has not moved forward and all the posts from years ago are still there. Consider this thread as evidence of how the old beliefs (and old posts) persist despite the new information. I still need to add a page to the wiki (hung off the serial numbers page) which covers all the lines of evidence for mid 1972. I've only mentioned a few of the different lines of evidence here and I would really prefer to spend time working on the full page for the wiki. But I'm always open to discuss new evidence.

Steve Black, PhD -- retired statistician and general gatherer of information about cymbals
Admin of Cymbalholic (RIP)
Contributor to the Pasite-Only Wiki (RIP)
Owner of the resurrected Paiste Wiki
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Last edited by zenstat; 08-14-2019 at 04:56 PM. Reason: photos inlined
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