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Old 08-14-2019, 04:44 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
Vintage Drum Guru
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,718
Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

One change in the patent list (for both SE hats and Flats) is not just the list of countries. It seems to be the inclusion or exclusion of the phrase "Other Countries Pending" at the bottom of the list.

For SE hats I've got examples from 1978 and 1979 which do not have the "Other Countries Pending". One 15" pre serial has the same list of 6 countries but with the "Other Countries Pending".

For Flat Rides I've got examples from 1978, 1979, 1983 which do not have the "Other Countries Pending". A pre serial SSS4 has the same list of 3 countries but with the "Other Countries Pending".

So pending more data it looks like the "Other Countries Pending" phrase was dropped mid 70s so that is another way to distinguish a 1971 cymbal from a 1981 cymbal.

And one other detail. I own a 20" Flat Ride with Pat. Pending and it has the black ink saying pAisTe Formula 602. I've included this image so that others reading this thread will be sure what we mean.

Note that this isn't a picture of mine because the ink is so faint I can't photograph it (yet). I owned it for a few years before I noticed it in just the right light. The rest of the ink is very well preserved top and bottom. I can't even be 100% whether it just had pAisTe alone or did have the Formula 602 underneath. I don't know if there was a pre serial number stage where there was just pAisTe black ink without the Formula 602 underneath. I do know there is a later time (1978) for pAisTe black ink on the early Sound Creations as well as other series, so obviously they had that ink stamp.

Anyway, the first black ink pAisTe Formula 602 may come a few months earlier the we currently think. Certainly before the first serial numbers. It comes down to precisely when the Pat. Pending ink stamp got replaced with one saying that it was patented. We have plenty of evidence that the black ink saying pAisTe Forumula 602 went on before serial numbers, and we should really improve our use of language so that it is clear. I've been using the shorthand "black label period" knowing the underlying distinctions but not being crystal clear for other people. We need to emphasize that the calling a 602 "black label" does is not exactly the same thing as calling it a 602 with a serial number. I will make amends.

Summarizing what we've gone through so far it seems like Paiste Customer Services and many posters on the Internet have no idea that we now have 3 orders of magnitude more data then a few years ago. We also have an order of magnitude more ways to tell a 1971 cymbal from a 1981 cymbal than they have ever imagined. For me the most interesting question at this point is how do we assist Paiste Customer Services to change their answer script to match the data? That would be a start.
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Last edited by zenstat; 08-14-2019 at 08:48 PM. Reason: photos inlined
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