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-   -   Zildjian's latest (http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=65890)

Drumaholic 04-06-2020 01:13 PM

Zildjian's latest
 
Behold the latest. Simply pure genius! It the new cluster F*CK
series. Right now its just pyramid shapes, but soon to be available in a variety of assorted ones: circles, rectangles, X's, parallelograms, you name it!

https://photos.imageevent.com/drumah...600%20_69_.jpg

And that's not all folks. They've become increasingly geometric in their hammering with this Constantinople line as of late. In the earliest days of this series, what they formerly referred to as "random hammering" has over the years gradually and subtly evolved into this; a graceful cauliflower Florette pattern:

https://photos.imageevent.com/drumah...1600%20_4_.jpg

Right, but it's not actually so random anymore. Consider that the Istanbul K. Zildjian hammering style at least gave us what appeared to us as being randomly hammered. But certianly not these. Here's the template currently used for Zildjian's Constantinople series hammering pattern:



https://photos.imageevent.com/drumah...ze/unnamed.jpg

The hammering pattern is based on a program which is compter generated; and is nothing more than a manufactured version of a Mandelbrot fractal pattern, which I showed in the illustration above. It's nothing more and nothing less than a mathamatically based model pattern that seems to have become standard on most of their K. Con. cymbals these days.

But you've gotta love Zildjian. They're just overflowing with geometrically oriented ideas these days. And if you stare long enough at these Mandlebrot images, your head begins to spin and it makes you feel nauseous. Thanks Zildjian.

O-Lugs 04-06-2020 02:30 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
I don't understand why Zildjian doesn't just start making old style K's again. They seem to be able to do everything else imaginable....but can't make an old K....wow. I mean...what if they did? Everyone would buy them. That's what.

The hammering on the first picture looks kinda good....until I realized there was that maltese cross pattern of holes of whatever they are. Do not like.

But I still love my old 70's A's and my Vintage rides and hi hats and crashes from the now-discontinued series from several years ago. I LOVED those.

All this other stuff just seems....goofy.

Drumaholic 04-06-2020 02:49 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Lugs (Post 459247)
I don't understand why Zildjian doesn't just start making old style K's again. They seem to be able to do everything else imaginable....but can't make an old K....wow.
The hammering on the first picture looks kinda good....until I realized there was that maltose cross pattern of holes of whatever they are. Do not like.

But I still love my old 70's A's and my Vintage rides and hi hats and crashes from the now-discontinued series from several years ago. I LOVED those.

All this other stuff just seems....goofy.

Yes goofy is indeed the operative word here. And you know why they don't try to start making an old K. type cymbal? Because it would cost them way too much. Not enough profit margin could be squeezed out of them. And because they would need an entire group of trainable hand hammering apprentices which they currently don't have, that would add even more to the cost of production. And you all saw what the EAK's were like right? Not like old K's in sound, nor in appearance. Hammered like old K's with approximately as much hammering? No, not at all. They had maybe maybe 1/4 as much as an old K. And the same hammering techniques and tools like they had back in the old days are long gone. And the artisans who developed their own unique methods along with their own unique tools such as hammers that were ground to satisfy their own personal taste are gone with them. And ditto that on the lathing techniques as well as those old cutting bits. All gone.

DrumBob 04-06-2020 05:06 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Another stupid Zildjian fad. Come on, Craigie, get a grip. Just make great cymbals.

Drumaholic 04-06-2020 05:49 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumBob (Post 459251)
Another stupid Zildjian fad. Come on, Craigie, get a grip. Just make great cymbals.

Craigie just pays the bills and orders all the copper and tin.

It's Paul Francis that you want to give a piece of your mind to....I mean if you can even stand to be in his presence that is.

Drumaholic 04-06-2020 06:54 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
And just in case anybody wants to be the first one in their neighborhood to be privileged enough own one of these marvelous pieces of work, then here's the ad that originally inspired this thread. Be sure to get yours today before these actually become a regular production model:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zildjian-Pr...AAAOSwtcteVAfX

DrumBob 04-06-2020 08:08 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumaholic (Post 459252)
Craigie just pays the bills and orders all the copper and tin.

It's Paul Francis that you want to give a piece of your mind to....I mean if you can even stand to be in his presence that is.

I've met Paul. You're right. He's a little nerd with an attitude. I came very close to a physical altercation with him at the factory in Quincy. It's a long story.

JimmySticks 04-06-2020 08:32 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Ummm, silly question - how do they sound? Coffee Break2

Drumaholic 04-06-2020 09:08 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmySticks (Post 459256)
Ummm, silly question - how do they sound? Coffee Break2

No, not a silly question at all. Just listen to the soundfile that's included there. A value judgement about the sound is in the ear of the beholder.

Drumaholic 04-06-2020 09:22 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumBob (Post 459255)
I've met Paul. You're right. He's a little nerd with an attitude. I came very close to a physical altercation with him at the factory in Quincy. It's a long story.

I had knowledge of your confrontation with him, because you told me about it privately during the Cymbalholic days. And that is precisely why I knew I could word that just as I did. Clearly there's no love lost between the two of you; that's for sure.

"A little nerd with an attitude"...now I really like that.

If I may be permitted to add just one thing to your characterization of him, I would modify it only slightly. It would be this:

"A GREASY HEADED little nerd with an attitude". And that would "nerd" could readily be substituted with the word "geek" at any point as called for as far as I'm concerned.

But then he emerged as something of a folk hero to the Cymbalholic crowd after I was removed. That of course was after the mercenary Zildjian bots whom they'd hired finally succeeded in getting me "banned for life". Then afterward all those bots promptly and mysteriously disappeared from the site; seeing as how they'd finally completed the dirty work that they were hired by Zildjian to perform. Now do any of you really think that their sudden disappearance right after mine was all just strictly coincidental?

And I didn't think so either.

But seeing as how their mission for Zildjian was finally accomplished, there was clearly no need for any of them to remain, and seeing as how they were no longer on Zildjian's payroll, they all just disappeared in a New York second. Thanks again Zildjian!

Magnus_N 04-07-2020 01:55 AM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Thank you so much, Drumaholic, for sharing these insights. I have learned a lot from you over the years regarding cymbals, old ks in particular. It is sad, indeed, when old craft traditions go the way of the dodo. But I guess part of the problem also is that not many of us drummers are prepared to pay the actual cost for good, labour intensive, highly skilled (manual) work on our pies and tubs. If so, this would only reflect general tendencies in consumer society.

Anyway, not to steal your thunder - I just wanted to thank you for your expertise, and just for being here all the time. Stay safe in the corona storm!

/Magnus

Drumaholic 04-07-2020 02:16 AM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnus_N (Post 459265)
Thank you so much, Drumaholic, for sharing these insights. I have learned a lot from you over the years regarding cymbals, old ks in particular. It is sad, indeed, when old craft traditions go the way of the dodo. But I guess part of the problem also is that not many of us drummers are prepared to pay the actual cost for good, labour intensive, highly skilled (manual) work on our pies and tubs. If so, this would only reflect general tendencies in consumer society.

Anyway, not to steal your thunder - I just wanted to thank you for your expertise, and just for being here all the time. Stay safe in the corona storm!

/Magnus

Your welcome, my friend.

vyacheslav 04-07-2020 10:03 AM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but...............


Didn't Zildjian have to stop hand hammering around the mid-80's? If I remember correctly, OSHA came in and said that hand hammering was hazardous and detrimental to long term "hand health" so that they put the kibosh on hand hammering and Zildjian spent millions on developing new machines that replicated hand hammering.

Because Zildjian is the only (major) US Cymbal company, this doesn't apply to the other major players: Sabian (Canada), Paiste (Switzerland), Meinl (Germany) all the Turkish brands, Chinese brands etc.; no one else is under OSHA's jurisdiction, they are free to hammer away.

So, I guess their way of "keeping up" is to come up with these crazy (goofy) and decidedly machine looking hammering patterns (even though they are supposed to be hand hammered).

To me, Zildjian needs to do the same thing as Pro-Mark. Stop getting cute with all the marketing BS. Just get back to basics and concentrate on making great cymbals, just like DrumBob says......

O-Lugs 04-07-2020 12:04 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Exactly, Magnus_N. I would pay more money for an old K reissue...IF it was like an old K. But, instead, Zildjian will spend millions on making inconsequential stuff that maybe only a fraction of drummers will actually buy and use. WHO uses these fad cymbal lines? I never see any of this stuff in the real world. I only see it at NAMM and places like this.

Zildjian should save their money and get some people and just friggin' start making some REAL cymbals again. Train some people. It can't be that impossible.

Drumaholic 04-07-2020 02:40 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Lugs (Post 459272)
Exactly, Magnus_N. I would pay more money for an old K reissue...IF it was like an old K. But, instead, Zildjian will spend millions on making inconsequential stuff that maybe only a fraction of drummers will actually buy and use. WHO uses these fad cymbal lines? I never see any of this stuff in the real world. I only see it at NAMM and places like this.

Zildjian should save their money and get some people and just friggin' start making some REAL cymbals again. Train some people. It can't be that impossible.

Impossible? No. But practical? Well that's another story. You see, the Turks along with Armenians have been making cymbals for hundreds of years. That very fact in combination the relatively cheap labor costs that exist in Turkey make up part of the difference between there and here. And with experienced people already in place with knowledge and practice in the art of making hand made cymbals, they can accomplish this cost effectively making it practical with reasonable profit margin. And so we've see the closest thing to "the originals" being made there and this still continues to this very day. But because the same set of favorable circumstances that exist there are just not present over here; then from a practical business perspective this is not a viable option that that Zildjian would be likely to consider. Although many of us might love to see it done right here, I'm afraid that at least for the foreseeable future, this is something that we can only wish for. But wishing will not necessarily make it so.

Drumaholic 04-07-2020 02:44 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vyacheslav (Post 459271)
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but...............To me, Zildjian needs to do the same thing as Pro-Mark. Stop getting cute with all the marketing BS. Just get back to basics and concentrate on making great cymbals, just like DrumBob says......

And I'll second that.

So Paul Francis? Are you here? The market place has a message for you.

You feel us? Only time will tell....

OddBall 04-07-2020 03:06 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumaholic (Post 459246)
Behold the latest. Simply pure genius! It the new cluster F*CK
series. Right now its just pyramid shapes, but soon to be available in a variety of assorted ones: circles, rectangles, X's, parallelograms, you name it!

https://photos.imageevent.com/drumah...600%20_69_.jpg

And that's not all folks. They've become increasingly geometric in their hammering with this Constantinople line as of late. In the earliest days of this series, what they formerly referred to as "random hammering" has over the years gradually and subtly evolved into this; a graceful cauliflower Florette pattern:

https://photos.imageevent.com/drumah...1600%20_4_.jpg

Right, but it's not actually so random anymore. Consider that the Istanbul K. Zildjian hammering style at least gave us what appeared to us as being randomly hammered. But certianly not these. Here's the template currently used for Zildjian's Constantinople series hammering pattern:



https://photos.imageevent.com/drumah...ze/unnamed.jpg

The hammering pattern is based on a program which is compter generated; and is nothing more than a manufactured version of a Mandelbrot fractal pattern, which I showed in the illustration above. It's nothing more and nothing less than a mathamatically based model pattern that seems to have become standard on most of their K. Con. cymbals these days.

But you've gotta love Zildjian. They're just overflowing with geometrically oriented ideas these days. And if you stare long enough at these Mandlebrot images, your head begins to spin and it makes you feel nauseous. Thanks Zildjian.

Do you think they can start hammering our own personal initials into cymbals with alphabet die hammers ?

Drumaholic 04-07-2020 03:12 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 459281)
Do you think they can start hammering our own personal initials into cymbals with alphabet die hammers ?

As it is, the mind of Paul Francis is already a fertile enough source of idiocy. So please don't give him any more hokey ideas than he's already got.

OddBall 04-07-2020 03:19 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
1 Attachment(s)
Mine would look something like this.....

....

Drumaholic 04-07-2020 04:57 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 459284)
Mine would look something like this.....

....

Yes, very nice.

I'm sure if you put in a special request, they could actually make one for you like that...but for a "nominal" extra fee of course.

The "OddBall" ride...yes that has a certain ring to it.

mbettis 04-07-2020 09:36 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
If some of you guys are looking for hand-hammered cymbals forged in the USA, you don't have to wait for Zildjian. I'd love to make you one, or more, of my Limited Edition cymbals.

Here's an example...
http://bettiscymbals.com/images/cymb...32_top_big.jpg

Thanks,
Matt

DrumBob 04-07-2020 10:00 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumaholic (Post 459262)
I had knowledge of your confrontation with him, because you told me about it privately during the Cymbalholic days. And that is precisely why I knew I could word that just as I did. Clearly there's no love lost between the two of you; that's for sure.

"A little nerd with an attitude"...now I really like that.

If I may be permitted to add just one thing to your characterization of him, I would modify it only slightly. It would be this:

"A GREASY HEADED little nerd with an attitude". And that would "nerd" could readily be substituted with the word "geek" at any point as called for as far as I'm concerned.

But then he emerged as something of a folk hero to the Cymbalholic crowd after I was removed. That of course was after the mercenary Zildjian bots whom they'd hired finally succeeded in getting me "banned for life". Then afterward all those bots promptly and mysteriously disappeared from the site; seeing as how they'd finally completed the dirty work that they were hired by Zildjian to perform. Now do any of you really think that their sudden disappearance right after mine was all just strictly coincidental?

And I didn't think so either.

But seeing as how their mission for Zildjian was finally accomplished, there was clearly no need for any of them to remain, and seeing as how they were no longer on Zildjian's payroll, they all just disappeared in a New York second. Thanks again Zildjian!

You have a great memory. I don't recall that conversation, but I'm sure it happened. I will say that Craigie was very nice to me. Nice lady.

OddBall 04-07-2020 10:52 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbettis (Post 459300)
If some of you guys are looking for hand-hammered cymbals forged in the USA, you don't have to wait for Zildjian. I'd love to make you one, or more, of my Limited Edition cymbals.

Here's an example...
http://bettiscymbals.com/images/cymb...32_top_big.jpg

Thanks,
Matt

It looks pretty but what's it sound like ?

Drumaholic 04-07-2020 11:25 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 459307)
It looks pretty but what's it sound like ?

He's got a youtube video channel where you check them out. But those examples are all pretty thin so I'm guessing they probably wouldn't be your cup of tea.

I'm aware that you like your cymbals with a little more meat on the bone.

mbettis 04-08-2020 10:41 AM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 459307)
It looks pretty but what's it sound like ?

Thanks! Since I make custom cymbals, they can sound dang near any way you want them to. Like Bill said, many of the ones I make are thin, as they tend to sell the best. However, I have guys that order more substantial cymbals, and I dig making them.

Here's a soundfile of a 22" Limited Edition that I like...

Matt

Drumaholic 04-08-2020 12:47 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
It seems this bell is slightly wider (and perhaps even just a hair flatter?) than others that I've seen you make. And I was specifically going to ask you whether you have a varied set of bell templates. It seems so. Personally that's the style I prefer because it emulates the old K. And the same goes for the broader impact hammering.

OddBall 04-08-2020 02:03 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbettis (Post 459318)
Thanks! Since I make custom cymbals, they can sound dang near any way you want them to. Like Bill said, many of the ones I make are thin, as they tend to sell the best. However, I have guys that order more substantial cymbals, and I dig making them.

Here's a soundfile of a 22" Limited Edition that I like...
https://youtu.be/BfVVK5tRhR0

Matt

That sounds fantastic guy. It goes dead fast, it don't wash out on ya, great stick, and when you edge it it does not go on forever. You'll probably never have to grab it.

Just like the old K's from Turkey. Do you mind me asking the metals`composition ? They look more on the Copper side of Bronze. They don't have that Electrum look of the old K's. Or maybe that's simply the way you polish them.

Do you make Hats ?

Drumaholic 04-08-2020 02:24 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 459325)
That sounds fantastic guy. It goes dead fast, it don't wash out on ya, great stick, and when you edge it it does not go on forever. You'll probably never have to grab it.

Just like the old K's from Turkey. Do you mind me asking the metals`composition ? They look more on the Copper side of Bronze. They don't have that Electrum look of the old K's. Or maybe that's simply the way you polish them.

Do you make Hats ?

I'll let him asnwer this, but one thing I can tell you is that he's using the Zildjian formulated proprietary B-20 that's supplied to him through Sabian.

OddBall 04-08-2020 03:13 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumaholic (Post 459327)
I'll let him asnwer this, but one thing I can tell you is that he's using the Zildjian formulated proprietary B-20 that's supplied to him through Sabian.

That actually explains a lot. The A that I have when polished is more bronze looking without a Copper huge/tint. When I polished the B8 I have from Germany, it has a very distinct Copper huge/tint. Finger prints take longer to come out on my A than the B8. Because the B8 has more Copper in it. I work with Copper, Stainless, Lead, and Aluminum a lot each year. Plumbing Copper, Sheet Copper and Flashing Copper all have different tints when polished or new. Flashing being the softest, with plumbing being the hardest. You literally can see the differences. I see a Copper tint on the surface of these cymbals we are talking about. Nowhere near as light as the A I have at any stage of oxidation.

Drumaholic 04-08-2020 06:51 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 459329)
That actually explains a lot. The A that I have when polished is more bronze looking without a Copper huge/tint. When I polished the B8 I have from Germany, it has a very distinct Copper huge/tint. Finger prints take longer to come out on my A than the B8. Because the B8 has more Copper in it. I work with Copper, Stainless, Lead, and Aluminum a lot each year. Plumbing Copper, Sheet Copper and Flashing Copper all have different tints when polished or new. Flashing being the softest, with plumbing being the hardest. You literally can see the differences. I see a Copper tint on the surface of these cymbals we are talking about. Nowhere near as light as the A I have at any stage of oxidation.

Wow. Never figured that an old guy like you would ever be a "metal head".

OddBall 04-08-2020 09:01 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumaholic (Post 459333)
Wow. Never figured that an old guy like you would ever be a "metal head".

Good one,...You'll be a Fallon rival soon.

Drumaholic 04-08-2020 11:54 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OddBall (Post 459336)
Good one,...You'll be a Fallon rival soon.

Aw hell, I'm way better than he is right now! Also it might surprise you to learn that I'm really in fact quite famous already! The only problem now is that there's there's simply not a lot of people who know about me yet.

bfulton 04-23-2020 09:13 AM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Two words:
Craig Lauritsen
Cymbalutopia.com
Plus the USD * AUD exchange rate makes for a bargain

Drumaholic 04-24-2020 09:50 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bfulton (Post 459848)
Two words:
Craig Lauritsen
Cymbalutopia.com
Plus the USD * AUD exchange rate makes for a bargain

Three words:
His cymbals suck.

There. I fixed it for you.

EDL 04-25-2020 12:22 AM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/manabuchannel/videos

clubdate64 04-30-2020 11:36 AM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
The real question is would any of you buy new cymbals from Zildjian anyway?
It's like the new 3 ply Ludwig kits. I don't know as though we are their target market.
Ive been hunting for years for a bass drum for my kit, even though I could order virtually the same bass drum from Ludwig right now.

I am certain my musical tastes are not the same as every drummer.
All these stax that sound like broken cymbals bolted together, and hand hammered cymbals that sound like the brass that came with Japanese stencil drums do not appeal to me. But so what.

Ive got my 13" new beats, 16" medium thin crashes and my 21" rock ride those are my core sound. I have a few other cymbals I bought over the years but those A zildjians are my sound.

jda 04-30-2020 01:58 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
you'd think the ..

https://zildjian.com/cymbals/band-or...symphonic.html

K Symphonic (not K Costantinople Symphonic) would be the 'least, affected by trends.

can hear them 'hear:
https://zildjian.com/cymbals/band-or...nic-pairs.html

Drumaholic 05-01-2020 01:56 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jda (Post 460079)
you'd think the ..

https://zildjian.com/cymbals/band-or...symphonic.html

K Symphonic (not K Costantinople Symphonic) would be the 'least, affected by trends.[/url]

Yes, being logical you would think so. But at Zildjian, their motto these days is:

"Here at Zildjian we leave no cymbal line un-F*CKed with."

jda 05-01-2020 04:39 PM

Re: Zildjian's latest
 
Hahaha.........


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